I went to my ranch this weekend and it was just me and Teal (17 weeks) When i give the command "here" he looks at me and well, nothing!! If i go to get him he wants to walk with me but wont let me put a lead on him. AKA runs away! Not taking off but avoiding. Any training ideas? This is a new problem. thanks John.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: john parkin,

Hey John

here is a copy of a post I had written on RTF...this is a great way to get young pups coming at a run .....

Put him on a long check cord (50-100 foot) and have someone hold it while they stand back from him 6 feet or so (or loop it through a ground stake or around a smooth pole)....show him a piece of hot dog and tempt him with it....then walk about 8 feet away while calling his name in an excited voice. He should not be made to sit or stay at all. Hopefully he will be straining against the rope to get to you. When you stop call him as excitedly as you can - as soon as he gets to you give him the piece of hot dog...repeat about 6 times a day and over a couple of weeks (as he realizes he will get a hot dog for coming) extend the distance to 30 yds or more....then start weaning him off the treats. Give him one every 2nd to 3rd time he returns....As soon as I see the pup understands the procedure, I will not call him until he is settled and watching me..this will teach him to have patience and that if he is not making a big fuss he will get to come, but at first I want to see them straining on the rope.

Now the other part of this training...
NEVER call him when you can't enforce (ie with a check cord)
Remember that he is a pup - just because he understands a command doesn't mean he is going to reliably do it each and every time...that is why you use a check cord - all the time...

I keep a check cord or lead on pups until they are collar conditioned to here.

Juli

Good advice from Juli...one thing I always remind people with a new puppy is that you can overdo the retrieves at this age, but you can NEVER overdo the recalls! Practice, practice, practice so you are positive the dog understands what you want. The other key that Juli didn't mention and this is VERY important at this age: If you are going to discipline pup, stop it from doing something it wants to do that you don't want (such as chewing, digging, etc.) or if you are going to kennel it, never call him to you at those times or pup will learn fast that the recall command means fun is at an end. Just go get the pup. Also if the recall results in a prolonged chase, you still have to praise the little devil when he finally gives up and comes to you even if you feel like tanning his hide.

Put about a 10 or 15 foot nylon check cord on the pup and let him trail it. He will shortly forget it's there but you will be able to get close enough to step on it and collar him those times when he decides to blow you off. Also it's very typical at his age to test you, so as Juli says, make sure if you use your recall command, that you are in a position to enforce it.

Ok everything you mentioned is pretty much what i have been doing. Maybe i was so sure with him that i am taking him off the check cord to early. (smart little devil) He has been so good and easy to train i guess i am rushing this a little. I remember when i had widgeon i could see her go after something at full speed and i would say "here" and wow she would skid and do a 180 and come back to my side. Of course her training was 9 years ago. I forgot how difficult pups can be! My wife said Widgeon was tougher than Teal is so I'll get there.

Kent, thanks and i will get the book! It is deer season at my ranch and with one week to go i have not gotten a deer yet. My son and his friend bagged a double saturday morning! Both teenagers! So the "dad, can you show us again how to skin a buck!" Two bucks to skin and wow how intently they watched sitting in front of a tv screen! LOL I have been busy and i will be going back up. John

John, 1st, maybe you could put a check lead on the teenager boys. (had to give atleast 1 joke).
Question, How has Teal been responding at home when you call him? Is this the first time he was at the ranch?
Reasoning, if it was his first time there, often a 'new' environment will excite a pup/dog and all previous learning is temporarily suspended because the urge to explore. Also, at home, does he play in a yard or field or any area outside when he is unleashed? If this is the case, Teal may associate being unleashed as 'play time'. Esp since he wanted to walk with you but would walk away when you tried to leash him. Esp since he didnot try to run away but rather walk away from you.

Also, at his early age, it is the ideal time to reinforce vocal commands. As Kent said, try using a different recall command. I recommend using a command used for service dogs, that is appropriate for all dogs. When you want the dog to return, I say "by side". Reasoning is two-fold. First, it is short & concise. Second, this phrase can prevent confusion in
many different situations. For example, say you use 'here'. Suppose children are somewhere near playing ball or whatever.
One of them says 'here' (to have ball thrown at them). Teal hears 'here' and responds. If near a street, traffic, or other
dangerous situations, a disaster could occur. Same with 'come' command. Another safety feature of this is useful since you want to hunt with Teal. This is extremely important if hunting with two or more dogs or with someone else that has a dog.
Suppose someone hunting with you wants to call their dog back and yells 'here'. Teal hears this and responds. Teal might not be in an ideal location and put himself in harms way responding to the other person (line of gun fire, hazzards, etc).
Same applies to a send-off command. I use (for chelsea) "bang-bang" instead of 'go' for the reasons stated above. Again, the word 'go' can be common place and the chances Teal hears it can spark a response. Often I will train/teach several different 'words' for different situations. The theory behind this is to prevent confusion while maintaining control.
(note for Kent and others that hunt with dog/dogs that would like to try this method. Even if the dog is older or set with
a specific command, it is easy to retrain using what the dog knows. For example, if you use 'here', simply state "here-by side" or if 'come' say "come-by side". Eventually you will be able to drop the "here' or 'come'.) Charlie

Dr. not to offend you but if he is going to run his dog the commands should be here and dog should be sent on call name. For blinds you send a dog on back.

The distance plays a part in why you say here.

You want dog by your side it's heel.

There are so many reasons why we use these commands you could write a book.

Dr. New Jersey - Winslow - Field Trial - September 26- 28 - go - observe - have a greatr time - seek out chessies and chessie people. They will be there though few in numbers.

Parkin. You haven't lost nationals. He is young and will do alot to confuse you and piss you off. Patience. 17 weeks!

Mike, you are missing the fundamental point, Teal is not responding now at a consistent level. Teal is not engaged now in
HT/FT, but BASIC COMMANDS to return or come back when the owner calls. Called Basic Commands because they are necessary,
esp for any future endeavors. To respond and come back when called is a MUST for any dog (FT/HT, Show, hunting, Pets!).
Juli & Julie both shown the necessity that this cannot be over taught. Point that Teal does not 100% return immediately is why the retraining is needed. Also, if you read my post, I said "Often I will train/teach several different 'words' for different situations" which would satisfy the different commands he needs for HT/FT as you stated. John could use one command in the field (trials - if he is using Teal for that, but I thought Teal was more a hunting partner). John could
use something else for another situation. As pointed out, if Teal was/ crated/caged, Teal might associate 'here' with, damn,I got to get locked-up again and time for that cage/crate/box, and I do not want to, so... Basics First... the rest will eventually fall into place. Charlie

My ranch is in the N fork cache creek area just below indian valley res.

Kent, i dont go out on that side of the lake i come in from the side you boat to. Its a 20 min. atv ride from my back door to the lake. Right now i dont think any Kokanee have survived as they have basically drained the lake dry. There are about 50 to 75 thousand acres of BLM behind me and your right no one is up there. Kinda hard to find a way in. Looking forward to some private duck hunting there also.

Charlie, I gotta' back Mike and Kent....when you are field training a dog you stick to using the same commands...for one if you end up sending the dog to a trainer later, the dog has to respond to the trainer's commands as they won't change them to suit the dog.

I agree that you can teach them different words, but I would prefer to see someone work through a problem continuing to work them in a positive manner to succeed until the commands they've been taught are learned.

A 17 week old puppy is not old enough to be good on any command especially the recall, and the recall is often the most screwed command a 'novice' owner encounters because they just automatically call the dog to "come" or "here" whenever they want the dog and they don't consider that everytime the dog doesn't come on that ocmmand they are just reenforcing to the dog that the dog doesn't have to come.

Playing the devil's advocate here, I have run into a command problem in many of my obedience classes.....not so much now but years ago as the trainers did not train field dogs and tried to teach their students to train their dogs with commands that can be in direct conflict with field commands. When I was married and could afford to send my dogs to field trainers, I learned then whet that acceptable field commands were and have always worked with that and around that when obedience/field training my dogs.

Just some food for thought.

Kathy

Mike, Sorry I sounded like I was 'blowing you off' to speak. I was trying to suggest to John, if Teal did respond before to being recalled that Teal might associate being unleashed as 'play-time' or associate 'here' as being caged or something else. I only wanted to recommend he try using another way to get Teal to respond. I mentioned 'SD' commands, but did not mean he necessarity use them. Also, thought John was going to 'hunt only' with Teal and not do 'field work'.
Thank you for the insight on terms used in field work and that they are standardized. (I didn't know that - still trying to
learn about HT/FT.) Maybe you can teach me the basics of field training so I'll understand better.
Kent & Kathy, the same appology. This has be a crazy week. Recovering from a TIA (stroke) last week and thinking and putting thoughts in order is hard. Moving arms tooo. Taking over 1 hr to write this. Sorry again. Charlie

Charlie, hope you are feeling better soon.

There are a lot of books, tapes & videos on field training insofar as hunt tests, field trials and just hunting, but they could also put one on overload trying to digest everything. IMO, a good basic book to start with is the 10-minute Retriever by John & Amy Dahl. It will give you an insight to this world and I'm sure others can suggest other books or tapes that are a good starting point to learn the jargon and the hows and whys of the behaviors and training needed to get off on the right foot with a started obedience and field trained chessie.

There is a lot to learn in training the good all purpose retriever besides the basics that goes beyond the obedience and behavioral type of training you have probably been educated in, and it's somewhat unique to the world of working retrievers. I think that would be true to most any working type of breed that has a unique purpose, and many a potentially good dog has been screwed up because the owner, or the person they were training with didn't know what was required. It all has to be looked at and incorporated into the normal day-to-day training pattern.

Kathy Miller

quote:

Originally posted by Moscowitz:

Dr. New Jersey - Winslow - Field Trial - September 26- 28 - go - observe - have a greatr time - seek out chessies and chessie people. They will be there though few in numbers.

If you are coming to Swamp's FT stop by the Amat and/or Derby. I'll be one of the 2 CBR people there. It would be nice to put a face with the name.

Tim

Dr. New Jersey - Winslow - Field Trial - September 26- 28 - go - observe - have a greatr time - seek out chessies and chessie people.

I'd love to come but not sure yet. Trying to recover TIA and driving is not possible. Since mywife cannot drive (paralysed right side, I'll try to make arrangments but short notice may make this trip impossible. Thanks for the invite - it would be nice. Maybe the next event.

Kathy, I know what you mean by overload. I'll get the book you said. Also you said "I think that would be true to most any working type of breed that has a unique purpose, and many a potentially good dog has been screwed up because the owner, or the person they were training with didn't know what was required. It all has to be looked at and incorporated into the normal day-to-day training pattern." I guess that is so true considering how smart chessies are - 1. chessies need direction and mis-cued or inconsistent training would be a 'nightmare'. and 2. consistency in training would probably prevent the chessie from trying to second-guess what is expected and thus prevent him/her from thinking/doing their own thing in anticipation.

Likewise, training a service dog seems the opposite. a SD has 'basic training' to learn the needed tasks and what is required/how to do, but is then trained to work with a specific person (tailored training). It seems like with field work,
the opposite, that the owner/handler must train or adjust to work with the dog. (your dogs probably reacted differently and had their own way to go about things and you had to adjust your approach to accomplish whatever it was/is. (correct??).

Speaking of chessie intelligence, Chelsea knows there is something wrong. She normally sits/lies by my side but when I put my wife to bed, Chelsea stays with her. Now, she has been a 'yo-yo', back and forth, running to 'check' on me every 15 min
even if it is to come downstairs and poke her head around the corner to watch me for minute, then she runs upstairs with my wife. Also, instead of lying at my feet, she almost climbs on me or puts her head on my lap. When I lie down, she turns around, puts her rear (tush) tight against my side so she can tell if I move or get up.

Feels like someone ties a rope or headband tightly around my head, tied it in a knot, and left it there so I better lay down. My normal routine/schedule is changed and Chelsea does not like it. Charlie

Charlie, I've found that there is always something differently with each dog I train. I don't know that I follow any particular schedule or program, but whatever I do with the pups is always positive and with the knowledge that I will be showing them in conformation early, start basic obedience, and incorporate the basic field work into that. Eventually it all comes together and I don't ask for anything but that they learn to comprehend what I want and do it willingly and with a good attitude.

As an added note, chessies are great anticipators when they think they know what you want, so that is also something you have to work on a lot without correcting so as to dampen their enthusiasm. I actually want my dogs to be enthusiastic, almost on the brink of out of control, yet still in control, as I get the best workers that way because I keep the attitudes. But I won't go with the way the dog wants it....it has to be my way, but with the dog thinking he did it <G>!

Kathy