Ok,

I have to vent a little. This past week, I have been running into nothing but dominance issues. For instance, this morning my pup and I were out for a walk. During this walk, he picked up a piece of plastic so i reached down to get it from him. He growled and then took a chunk out of my hand. He is only 15 weeks old.

I have tried every bit of advice, and I went to a pro trainer two days ago. The trainer told me to notify the breeder about the aggression, and to see if he will take the pup back. He told me that he has trained many chesapeakes and that some are just naturally aggressive. He warned me that "He feels I have a pup with an unnatural aggression issue."

I have never hit the dog, and I have never played tug of war. I have taken him to obedience classes, and I work with him daily. I exercise him 3 times a day, 1 of which is retrieving in water. He follows commands wonderfully, but everytime anyone pets him he start mouthing. I have scars on both arms from him, and I have a cut on my nose.

As of today, I am following "Retriever from the Inside Out." From what I have read from the Butch Goodwin, I think I have the pup believeing he is the leader of the pack.

Any suggestions on how to prove dominance over pup?

As always all advice is considered and appreciated.

Josh

quote:

suggestions on how to prove dominance over pup?

As always all advice is considered and appreciated.

Next time he pulls that roll him and get on top of him quick and don't let him get up. Get nasty with "what did you do, what are you thinking" type stuff, hell growl at him. Whatever it takes to get his attention. No hitting but your goal is to scare the hell out of him. It is exactly what would be done if he stepped out of line in the pack. Most important is when you let him up put him right into a known command, sit, heel etc. It is almost as if you are saying “you did something bad now you better fall in line quick”. If when he snaps or growl at you, you recoil he has now developed a new tool to get out of situations he doesn't feel comfortable in. Not a huge deal at 15 weeks but when he is 2 and decides he wants to test his boundaries you could have a serious problem.

As I said, as of today I am following the butch goodwin way of proving dominance. I think I have let him get away with too much for too long at this point.

This morning after all that happened, I spit in his food before i gave it too him. Not to be gross but to follow the method. From now on when he mouths, I am holding his muzzel shut and repeating "NO" sharply. I am staring him down when he looks at me until he turns away. And next time he comes at me like that I am putting him on his back. Heck, I might even spit in his mouth if that is what it takes. But as I said all along, I will never intentionally hit or harm him.

I tryed offering other objects when he mouths, and I really really really tried praise for everything done right. But for some reason it hasn't worked with him in the least. If anything he has learned that it is ok to chew on me more.

Does anyone know if neutering would help any of this?

Josh

Sounds like you need to follow the advice you got last month, be the alpha dog, but do it right and be consistent. Like all of us, gauge doesn't like to be nagged at, we and him will just ignore the nagging after awhile. That is why one or two proper corrections are far better than a bunch of nagging half corrections.


Good luck

Jeff

Kent,

have you ever seen a mother dog lick her adult offspring's mouth until he opened up and let her thoroughly 'clean out' his mouth?..I have....I think that is the type of dominance that Goodwin talks about...I have used it before, and it does have an affect on the dog or pup....

Gauge, he's not being aggressive, he's just being a typical chessie who is trying to be the dominant one. Chessies will do this if they think they can get away with it. I also totally disagree with the trainers assessment of aggression in this case. I have chessies with exemplary temperament, but at some point they will always try this at least once, and if they get away with it, they will continue and it will get worse!! Matter of fact, it's one of the questions I ask potential puppy buyers, i.e. how would they react the first time they went to take something from their pup and he growled and snapped at them or bit them. If I don't get the right answer, they don't get one of my pups!

That said, I don't believe in alpha rolls unless you know what you are doing, but I do believe in firm NOOOOOOOOO's, with a nasty eyeball to eyeball alpha glare and a good ear jerk right to the ground. Usually it never happenes again. After that, I do a lot of trading as continuing correction of this type can actually make the problem worse. They have to know the first time they can't get away with it, but after that always carry some high value treats with you and trade them. This way they learn to give up the cherished item willinglyly and you don't create an attitude. You're not placating them but rather instilling the correct behavior with a good attitude.

BTW, I just worked with a year old male I sold to some people locally who were having a similar problem and I had no problem with him. They were impressed by his entire change of demeanor and attitude.

Kathy Miller
Sandy Oak Chesapeakes.

My best suggestion is Training.

15 weeks is not too young to begin teaching obedience, limits and expectations. All of these items will lead to you being the "alpha".

As you begin with simple obediece you will probably get a dog that will bite at the lead, don't tolerate it. It is not acceptable. Every task no matter how simple must be done correctly. Sit means sit heel means heel everytime.
Limits: You giveth food you can take it way! At feeding time take his food when he is half done and be prepared to correct any agrressive behavior. This training set-up is no different than any mark or blind you may one day do.

Expectations: As the new alpha you need to anticipate. As he learns he cannot get away with poor behavior he learn life is better if he pleases.

JMO

Tim

quote:

My best suggestion is Training.

15 weeks is not too young to begin teaching obedience, limits and expectations. All of these items will lead to you being the "alpha".

As you begin with simple obediece you will probably get a dog that will bite at the lead, don't tolerate it. It is not acceptable. Every task no matter how simple must be done correctly. Sit means sit heel means heel everytime.
Limits: You giveth food you can take it way! At feeding time take his food when he is half done and be prepared to correct any agrressive behavior. This training set-up is no different than any mark or blind you may one day do.

Tim, I know you've had this breed for years and it works for you, or even for me, but not good training practices for the novice owner as they don't have what it takes to deal with the consequences they impose on the dog.

I've not had a dog grab or bite at a leash in years.....they all willingly come along with me because of the methods I use.

The dog I just had to work with had both food aggression and toy aggression because the owners used the methods you suggested. Steve is a copy and thinks the way to train a dog is to instill obedience and correct them when they don't comply. In fact he was turning a lovely young dog into a monster. This is why so many Chesapeakes end up in rescue. I believe in correction when there is a reason, but I don't believe in using aggressive training methods to create aggression that you have to correct, esp. for the novice dog owner. They don't have the knowledge to work through the problems.

When you feed the dog, I believe it should be in a place away from people and distractions, i.e. his run or crate, let him eat, praise him when he is finished and take the dish away. I have no food aggression with any of my dogs or the ones I sell and this is they way they are trained. The dogs who do have food issues are the ones who people have tried to interfer with while the dog is eating. The same goes for trading with high value treats for toys and retrieved forbidden items. Like I said in my previous post, you are not placating the dog but rather instilling the correct behavior using positive motivational methods.

I respect you for your length in the breed and your ability but I work with novices all the time and have found these to be the best methods for them to use.

Just my 25 cents worth!

Kathy Miller

Thanks for all the advice,

First of all, This pup will never end up in a rescue. Thats the bottom line.

As for toys, I can take and give thim at will. But if he knows he shouldn't have something i.e. a rock or piece of wood. Thats when i get a bite.

He mainly mouths me when he is playing but it can get agressive, and I have tried to offer treats instead only to have it get worse.

There are so many different oppinions, that is why I went to a pro and i was told to get rid of him.

I appreciate all the advice.

Josh

Here's my worthless opinion. Give the dog back to the breeder so they can find a new home. I believe that you are going to have a hard time trusting this dog and bonding with this dog.

Do yourself a favor and the dog. This might not be the right dog and it might require a lot more than you expected from a pup. There are other chessies that don't have this kind of attitude. I have two very gentle and affectionate chessies.

quote:

Here's my worthless opinion. Give the dog back to the breeder so they can find a new home. I believe that you are going to have a hard time trusting this dog and bonding with this dog.

Do yourself a favor and the dog. This might not be the right dog and it might require a lot more than you expected from a pup. There are other chessies that don't have this kind of attitude. I have two very gentle and affectionate chessies.

I hate to keep jumping in here on this subject, but it's something that I know a lot about. I am a breeder, producing between 2 & 3 litters a year. I work with the people I sell my pups to, and talk to a lot more people that I don't sell pups to because I feel they are not saavy or dominant enough in personality to successfully train a chessie.

Most of you who post here have much experience owning and successfully training chessies to advanced levels in the field. How many of you breed and sell your pups to novice owners?

The bottom line is that these are chessie, not labradors or goldens. We know this and this is why we have chessies, but realistically speaking we also know that chessies have dominant personalities and can be assertive. We don't have problems with them because we know how to deal with them, but sadly other people are not as fortunate or successful and accomplishing training that comes to us as second nature.

I breed chessies with incredible good temperaments....trial people won't touch them because they say they are too soft, but I find them highly trainable, very tractible, and so willing to work and to please for me and for most other people who speak 'dog". I try to avoid selling chessie pups to people who I feel just don't have what it takes to raise and train one, but every so often one sneaks through, and Bingo! They have a problem. As a general rule if they will contact me, I can work them through it and I do, but there have been a few that I took back who were dominantly aggressive and could never be placed in other homes. I kept them and worked them through their problems because I could still see the good side of the Sandy Oak breeding and I could handle them, but they were also still chessies who had learned how to manipulate people and would try wherever they thought they could get away with it.

My advice to Josh is if you really feel this dog is going to be a problem, then give him back to the breeder if they are willing to take him back. But don't get another chessie because I think you will encounter pretty much the same kind of problems. Get yourself a lab or a golden and enjoy the ride.

Or learn how to deal with your chessie appropriately and quit beinf afraid of him. Take him down by the ear and tell him NOOOOOO! The dog has learned to take advantage of you, and as I recall you've been posting here with problems since you first got him. Talk to the breeder and see if you can set up some training sessions with the breeder and set the dog up with the kind of things that happen when you have a problem with him and see how the breeder handles it. People are so quick to blame the poor dog for his problems, and I always blame the people for their failure to understand why the dog is having a problem so the human doesn't handle it correctly. You have to be fair to a chessie and treat them with respect and help them over the rough spots while still maintaining your position as the dominant figure, i.e. the leader.

Enough said!

Kathy Miller

Josh,

You have received so much good advice on not only this subject "Dominance" but, also on the "I need help" thread last month. I don't understand (and maybe it's just me) how/why you are unable to teach this pup this type of behavior is unacceptable.

Every dog no matter what the breed, needs to understand there are rules. It is your job to teach him what they are - NO biting or growling should be one of them.

Correcting this type of behavior is not going to happen overnight, especially when it has been allowed to go on for some time. If you are not being consistent or firm enough in your corrections he is never going to get a clear picture of what you expect from him or what is right and wrong.

What ever method of correction you choose to use needs to be effective enough to stop the wrong behavior. When he does stops you need to praise him immediately, because he then is no longer doing anything wrong. Correction followed by praise is the only way he is going to learn/understnad what behavior is right and wrong.

Just my penny's worth!!

Norene S.
Nordom Chesapeakes

Ok,

I have to say this. Yes, I posted before over a similar issue and I got a ton of advice that was consistently opposed to any sort of physical dominance over him ie rolling him to his back or tugging his ear. As a matter of fact, the opinions were so varied it seemed as if people were actually arguing on here.

As I explained, I have begun following goodwins way which for today has been extremely effective! Tonight has been a needed blessing.

I explained earlier that getting rid of this puppy isn't an option! My grandfather hunted over a chessie, and by God so will I. Gauge is just going to have to learn that I am completely in charge! I truly appreciate everyones advice, and I wish I would have took the harder stance in the first place. But I was obviously communicating wrong with the pup! That is my fault and not his.

This pup has every natural ability to hunt, and even though I have worked with other breeds in the past this is new to me.

After loginning in tonight, I am sort of disappointed. All I was trying to do was learn some basic techniques with the breed, not get judged or told to give the pup back for his benefit!! LOL that is a joke

I truly appreciate all that tryed to help me learn, and for your effort I thank you. God bless those who actually cared about my situation. Every post I have made to this point has turned into a pissing contest, so Im signing off. Ill just go to a different pro and keep working with him.

Take care to those who actually wanted to help, Ill close this account now

This idea may be a little off the wall but, besides owning a chessie i have the distinct honor of owning a "rat terrier" and i am glad he is only 18 lbs!! He is a dominant animal and owns the family. The only one he would not dominate was Widgeon my deceased dog! He then has tried to dominate Teal. Now that teal knows how to deal with the little rat, the dominance issue doesnt work! With further observation i realized the the quick sharp bite around the neck that they do. I know some may not like this but.. If you put a shock collar on him and you then are in a situation where he might snap at you, and i think you probably know when, have that control ready to zap him. This is purely my observation of how i have seen two potentential dominant dogs settle a dominace issue. He will then realize that biting is only going to hurt him more than biting you. Its worth a try.

quote:

Originally posted by j parkin:
This idea may be a little off the wall but, besides owning a chessie i have the distinct honor of owning a "rat terrier" and i am glad he is only 18 lbs!! He is a dominant animal and owns the family. The only one he would not dominate was Widgeon my deceased dog! He then has tried to dominate Teal. Now that teal knows how to deal with the little rat, the dominance issue doesnt work! With further observation i realized the the quick sharp bite around the neck that they do. I know some may not like this but.. If you put a shock collar on him and you then are in a situation where he might snap at you, and i think you probably know when, have that control ready to zap him. This is purely my observation of how i have seen two potentential dominant dogs settle a dominace issue. He will then realize that biting is only going to hurt him more than biting you. Its worth a try.

I know I don't like it....IMO electric collars are the wrong tool to use to correct aggression...

Juli

Now Josh,

I have wondered, and maybe you will answer the question, maybe not...Are you more worried about 'breaking' your pup's spirit if you correct him?

Just know that in the past I have been known to be cautious with my pups because I did not want them to think of me as the big mean 'Mom'...LOL...Seems I got more that way when I started actually buying dogs (previously had 3 'free' mixes)...It was like I was afraid that I was going to 'ruin' the pup I had bought...I have since realized what I did...and now I don't let my 'purebreds' act like spoiled brats (well, they were never quite that bad, but I did let them get away with more)..LOL...

Juli

Josh,

I commend you for your perseverance and dedication in learning to overcome this obstacle with your puppy. No one, not the breeder, not a pro, and not a person on the forum knows this dog as well as you do. That said no one knows your capabilities as well as you know yourself. If you stick to it you will find success.

As you have heard before Chessies need socialization. I really think you would benefit if you find an obedience class and join it with your pup. Not just any obedience class. Call the trainer and ask them what method they use. There are different schools of teaching and in my opinion you would not benefit from a clicker training or reward based training method. Look for a trainer with experience dealing with dogs from an animal behavior stand point and sign up for a puppy group obedience class. This will benefit you and your pup as well as socialize your dog to new things and other dogs (the other dogs are very important). Usually these classes are several weeks and you can benefit from the extended help of the trainer. Don’t usually break the bank either.

Good luck,

Juli, after thinking about my potential solution a little more, I think the collar might actually work if that is all it is used for. Reason being that this is a safety issue and needs direct action. A friend of mine had a male chessie that was a wonderful dog, but as he sat in the back of a truck, He would wait and wait a little longer as someone approached and bam gotcha! For no apparent reason. If this pup has this inherant behavior i would use any means to halt this problem. This really is the worst of any problem a dog can have! Further more this pup seems to have a problem with Josh's hand. I think that instead of trying to stop the problem with vocal commands or the use of the hand which is supposed to be the ultimate friend, Let the collar be the bad guy in this situation. This way the pup only thinks he is hurting himself. JMO John

John,

Not necessarily true. You are thinking like a person and not a dog. The dog could blame the collar that bit him and retaliate on the human.

In most instances of collar use, behavioral conditioning is required so the dog understands the behavior and understands why he was corrected.

Now, if one of my pups grabs my hand to bite, my hand immediately bites back in the form of a correction with either a backhand to the muzzle, or I grab the pups lower jaw firmly with my thumb and forefinger and push down on it, or grab the upper muzzle from the top of the muzzle with my thumb and forefinger amd make sure to push part of the fleshy part of the upper lips hard against the pups sharp teeth, and in all cases, time it with a loud NOOOOOOO, release him and just walk away ignoring him! It usually only takes 2 or 3 times of this type of correction to stop the problem. If it doesn't, then the next time, I grab the pup by the bottom of the ear lobe, tell him NOOOOOO and flip him to the ground along with a nasty alpha stare, hold him there a few seconds, then just walk away from him.

I've had an interesting behavior with my "new" 5 year old Standard Poodle. He licks, and it drives us nuts. I can't really punish him for it because he's not doing anything wrong, but I needed to figure out how to stop the behavior. I tried telling him no and redirecting him, but that didn't work, so the other night, he started licking and I simply grabbed his tongue and held on for a few seconds. I did this everytime he started to lick, and after about the 3rd attempt to lick my hand, he quit, so I praised him and rubbed his ear for a bit! Basically I made it very uncomfortable for him to lick me!

My point being that sometimes there are better and less aggressive ways to do things that don't create more problems.

Kathy Miller

Listen, Im sorry I exploded like that. I am trying everything in my power to make a wonderful pup.

The bottom line here is that I was giving him the wrong messages! My body language and permissivness was actually making him think he was dominant. I have now worked on him the last two full days, and as of today I was only mouthed on once.

Basically yesterday, when he jumped on me I walked away from him. When he stared at me, I stared back at him till he looked away. When he mouthed on me, he got a very sharp "NO" and his muzzle grabbed and shaked. When he persisted, He was removed from the area and left in a room by himself while he calmed down. This morning when I fed him, I spit in his food.

Realistically, I was to blame for all of this. I let him believe he was in charge of me. I realze it is a very very long haul, and that I have to be firm and consistent. But he does seem to be getting the picture quickly. On top of all that, He is listening to me much better when it comes to obedience.

I always appreciate advice and guidance, as this is all very new to me. I will guarantee that I will stick it out, and that this dog will always have a loving and caring home! All he has to do is bring me a duck or two in return when I can hit them!

Thanks for all the advice, and I hope that everything is wonderful for everyone today!

Josh

My worthless opinion. Great discussions on aggression. I really have never had a problem with aggression. But my older dog during FF did bite my finger that required stitches. Not an aggression problem an avoidance problem which was my fault didn't hold his mouth when I bit him on the ear. Most chessies I have encountered are not that aggressive. Example Wendy Chissom wanted to step out of the blind to check out the blind at a field trial. Never met her chessie Abbey but she saw me and asked me to hold her dog. No problem. Chessie get a bad rap and I am tired of it. People at hunt tests and field trials and even pros have a real negative feeling about chessies and aggression.