I am having some troubles with one of my Toller boys, he will not pick up a pheasant. He is great with ducks of any size/type.

We have trained a lot with a pheasant dokken, which is injected with pheasant scent, and the whole body of the dokken is wrapped with pheasant wings, so he is used to the feel/taste of pheasant feathers, the weight of the birds etc. But you send him for a real pheasant, he will grab it then immediately spit it out.

We have tried teasing him with it and getting him really excited, I have flung a dead pheasant all over my kitchen (very messy!!! lol), have tried the "competition factor" with multiple dogs, but still the same results of a quick grab then spit

Any suggestions?

I haven't force fetched him yet, I have barely started on hold with paint roller. I know it needs to be done (delivery to hand is not really there yet and we want to run JH next year). But he is VERY soft, takes things very personally, and I am scared of screwing up and making things worse, so I am currently force-fetching a few of my not quite as soft dogs first for practice LOL

My husband has another dog to hunt with this season, so I don't need a "quick fix". I was just really surprised with his reaction to the pheasant. Grouse and partridge last year were no issue to him, and big stinky ducks are just fine.

I am wondering if we should gut and tape up a pheasant, make it a bit lighter, and see if that makes any difference?

Kent the word is lab

After watching a Dustin Retriever video and reading 10 min retriever i would say force fetch is in line. This is a case where the dog should have no option. FYI: I believed this before the book or video! With a new pup this reaffirmed my answer. John

ps Force fetch training is easy as long as you are consistent.

Tollwest, I remember reading on one of the boards here a similiar problem - the chessie would retrieve any fowl except for
pheasants. Now your Toller is exhibiting the same. Wondering if there is a particuliar taste/smell that doesnot agree with
the dogs. Or I noticed you use a scent ("We have trained a lot with a pheasant dokken, which is injected with pheasant scent). Is there something added or in the scent that is disagreeable? Then when "you send him for a real pheasant, he will grab it then immediately spit it out" may be a reaction to natural taste/smell which reminds him of the scent used.
Just a thought.
You added " But he is VERY soft, takes things very personally, and I am scared of screwing up and making things worse, so I am currently force-fetching a few of my not quite as soft dogs first for practice LOL". I am not to sure about Tollers, but Chessies have incredible long memories. Do Tollers?? Caution if he is that soft and skiddish with FF. Maybe you can work with him with another Toller in retrieving pheasants (he might learn and accept retreving if he sees another dog do it). Esp if that dog is a toller he knows and respects.I personally have not FF, my training is more service dog oriented and FF is counter-productive with that area. However, reading too many posts (here & elsewhere) of dogs 'ruined' or there was a big delay in training because of FF not done correctly or over used. Since you said "I am currently force-fetching a few of my not quite as soft dogs first for practice", be careful & cautious. Best Regards, Charlie

Pheasant are unlike ducks in that their feathers are dry and fluffy and tend to stick to the dog's mouth. A good breaking in for this type of bird is to get some pigeons or chukar and restrict their flying either by clipping their flight feathers or by using a harness, and then throwing them for the pup. The thrill of the chase will soon overcome the reluctance of the sticky feathers. Don't use live pheasant as they can be a bit nasty in fighting with the pup.

T. Mac

Charlie, you wrote:

quote:

I personally have not FF, my training is more service dog oriented and FF is counter-productive with that area.

I know this has nothing to do with Tollwest's pheasant problem, but am just curious as to why the FF would be counterproductive to service dog training. It would seem to me that it would only enhance your service dog training by teaching the dog an unquestionable fetch and return with the object. Done properly I can only seeing in enhancing your service dog traininig!

Just me two cents worth!

Kathy

O do agree with Kathy Miller. When I had my hip replacement and dropped something the word fetch came in pretty handy. And in fact I am familar with a service dog owned by a person wheel chair bound who's dog is training to pick up things open doors etc. That dog was ff by the trainers.

I watched a demonstration at the Seattle Kennel Club Dog Show where the service dog fetched pennies from a concrete floor, fetched the phone, got drinks from a fridge and had a command to hit an emergency button. The dog was trained for a quadriplegic patient. I wanted to ask the trainer about force fetching but, she hustled off quickly after the demonstration. I automatically assumed the dog had to be forced fetched because of the sense of urgency the dog had to fetch objects and hold them upon command.

Kathy, Mike, & Paul,
FF as used in HT/FT training is counterproductive because of the result. I'll try to explain. Kathy wrote "by teaching the dog an unquestionable fetch and return with the object" is therein the problem. Other methods of training to 'fetch' are employed instead (guess basically you could call it a form of FF). The 'unquestionable fetch' presents several problems.
When FFing (sounds derogatory/swearing) a dog, that dog is taught to unconditionally retrieve, ie duck, pheasant, grouse, etc or whatever. This is fine if every retrieve is the same item/thing. Always fowl. However, that FT/HT dog may become confused if another object is expected to be retrieved without additional training for that specific object/item.
The opposite applies. A SD (Service Dog) is usually not in the same type of setting or environment when he/she is expected to 'retrieve' an item/object. The dog may be in the house, park, store, etc. A hunting dog is always in a field/woods.(I would hope - hate to stumble on a 'blind' in the mall parking lot - tehehe). This 'hunting dog' associates two things - environment as well as game/prey to retrieve. (a 'package deal' association). Whereas a SD generally never has these two
factors paired together - location (home, store, parking lot) and object differ. As I said before, a HT/FT (or any dog used for hunting) is trained (thru FF) to retrieve one type of item - usually fowl. A SD may have to retreive car/house keys that were dropped, a wallet, pen/pencil, etc. They ALSO have to occasionally 'Deliver' the object - give a wallet or money to a cashier, etc. A FF dog is taught to give to hand - but owners/trainers. Not to someone else. Also,there is the issue of Unwanted retrieves - whereas FF requires/trains to ALWAYS get obect, SD training is 'selective'. You do not want a SD to automatically retrieve every fallen object, esp when that object is not personalized. For example, in a store, a near-by stranger drops a wallet, keys, etc. You do not want your dog to quickly grab that item (person may not understand and become aggitated to owner or dog). Also, this action could put the owner/person in harms way - pulling person into street, off sidewalk, etc to 'retrieve' something. (consider a HT/FT dog that was FFed. you are in the country walking your
dog off-lead (without a leash). You hunt with this dog, or participate in HT/FT. While walking, suddenly you hear a gun shot. Off on a near-by field is hunters. Ducks flying everywhere. One hunter shot one. your dog sees the 'downed duck'. Guess you can imagine what will happen next. Despite calling the dog back, he/she may not immediately recall - just wants to retrive that duck - what trained to ndo with FF).
Sorry long and convoluted (I could have organized this better). Hope this answers your inquiries. Paul, SD's go through usually two phases of training - 1st is generalized, then specific oriented to the owner/disabled and their particular needs. Every SD performs differently and different tasks. The YL Monica was Tri-Phased. She was certfied in Seeing Eye,
Wheelchair, and personal service. (what is required for example para or quad patients. Monica could answer phones, get items/objects from the refrigerator, open/close doors, etc. Whereas Chelsea is Bi-Phased, she is wheelchair cert with the ability to assist in walking. Some SD's are trained to detect seizures, strokes, etc. So due to the unique demands and differences placed on each individual dog, training is customized and tailored and not the 'cookie cutter' type training for a hunting, HT/FT dog that is FFed. That is why there is a significant 'drop-out rate' in secondary training for SD's.
Whereas, you can in theory, take any Chessie, FF him/her, and hunt. The results (greatness of dog and proficiency) will differ but the dog will still work and function. With SD's, this is not the case. Hope this clarifies alittle. Charlie

Hey Doc, Force fetch is not just a tool to fetch only! It is only one component of the over all picture. Its my opinion that a good dog for field/hunt or service will only act upon command. If somone else takes a bird in another field a good dog force fetched or not should not retrieve until told to do so. Unless i missed something in your post. John

Sorry, Doc, but I disagree with you!! When I tell my dogs to fetch something, I expect them to fetch it regardless of what it is...be it duck, goose, dumbbell, pennies, keys, or a newspaper. Once the fetch concept is learned, it should apply to everything!

Kathy

Have to agree with Kathy on this one- a retrieve is a retrieve is a retrieve. Prior to being FF'd, my two would retrieve, but not 100 % of the time. Both will fetch up whatever they're told now. Unlike Thud, who retrieved what he liked to retrieve, but not everything I commanded him to fetch up, never having gone thru FF.

GiGi

Kathy & John,

Quote: "When I tell my dogs to fetch something, I expect them to fetch it regardless of what it is..."

Obvious - YES. But the method to obtain that level of training is what is addressed. There are other methods utalized to obtain these results beside "FF". Overall, FF style training (method) is counter-productive for training SD's.

As I said before, "So due to the unique demands and differences placed on each individual dog, training is customized and tailored and not the 'cookie cutter' type training for a hunting, HT/FT dog that is FFed". Training a HT/FT dog or hunting dog is relatively uniform - look at all the videos, books, manually use the same format/principles to train.

The FF techniques used treat ALL dogs the same. With SD's, there has to be individual tailored training that differs for each dog. Also, different SD's need different skills to fulfill the work required of them. SD's that need to be able to retrieve items or objects are taught to do so, (your last post gave the impression SD's don't), but with other methods more conducive for SD usage.

Point for John (and all) is that 'retrieving objects' is only a part of a SD's duties, not the whole aspect of the dog.
For example, take a cbr used for HT/FT or hunting. The dog is set-up or placed in a position to respond/react. The dog is released or given a command to retrieve. Now, does he or not. FF is essential as a foundation so he will. A FT/HT dog or a hunting dog that will not retrieve is useless in the field - JOB DESCRIPTION: Retrieve Prey!! That is ALL he has to do.
That is his ONLY purpose being there. (otherwise, why have him there if he only sits looking around and not work).
A SD, on the other hand, has multiple duties and functions, which may or may not require 'retrieving'. It is not like the field work cbr that only is there for one specific purpose. Therefore, using FF, is not inducive for their working ability
SD's that need to be able to retrieve an item or object are taught to do so, but not with the methods currently used in FFing. (Most reading these posts look at the perspective of experience - FT/HT/Hunting cbr - as their base-line. Retrieving is ALL that is required (generally). Now add other duties or requirements to the dog and the overall outlook is altered. Esp when a SD not only must 'retrieve', but 'find' or 'locate' in a manner the typical cbr working in the field does not have to do. Example - go to the refrigerator, open door, locate bottle, bag, can,etc by ribbon or identifier used, get that object, close door, return with such to person waiting. All this MUST be done in progressive order. No skipped steps. FF as used cannot & willnot instill these attributes/course of action.

As stated, SD's duties vary. They might have to carry a backpack, medications, get/deliver mail, perform multi-functions,
or a vast variety of other duties. Fetching or retrieving is one part. FF teaches/instills the Necessity of the Dog to always retrieve/return with object(again great if always the same circumstances are presented, but not realistic for SDs)
That is why other methods work more efficiently in training. Charlie

quote:

Overall, FF style training (method) is counter-productive for training SD's.

Why? Charlie, I don't see any difference. And, the same method should NOT be used on all chessies!

How many field dogs have you trained? How many titled obedience dogs have you trained and I'm not talking through just CD level, but through UD level? More so obedience dogs with field titles? How many chessies have you owned? And maybe I should ask how many service dogs have you trained?

Kathy

Started a post on an issue pertinent and saw Kathy's post added. Since it partially addresses this aspect, I cancelled post to rewrite.

Kathy wrote "Why? Charlie, I don't see any difference. And, the same method should NOT be used on all chessies!"

First Kathy, (not that I'm jumping on you like Kent) HOW MANY CHESSIE SD's DO YOU KNOW OR HAVE SEEN!!??
This was not the issue, FF is. But I'm glad you brought it up since it is regarding the post I cancelled to rewrite now.
Yes Chelsea (cbr) is a certified Service Dog (state & federal). She is the only one I have ever seen. Right after I got her, I attended a training symposium where the concensus was amazement a Chesapeake could function as a SD. They too never known a cbr to work in this line/field. One gentleman even said he could not believe how Chelsea would work - thought it would be impossible for a chessie to do consistently. ALL CHESSIES as you state??

The initial aspect I was posting was this - FF is not only non-condusive for SD training, it is also non-condusive for the
typical dog used for SD training. Look at EVERY post here about whether or not to FF a dog. There is always at least one
response saying 'can the dog take it?'. Or is the dog able to 'handle the pressure?'. Or such!!

Most SD's nature is "soft". A sensitive dog makes a better SD. (I wrote "Most reading these posts look at the perspective of experience - FT/HT/Hunting cbr - as their base-line." This includes type/breed of dog owned too!!) A majority of SD's are Goldens! Labs follow! Shepherds, Great Danes, Collies, etc. Do you want to FF a Golden?? And feel secure about that decision?? Not every dog and breed is as resilient as a chessie. (Chelsea is great but I would not normally use a peake as a 1st choice for a SD.).

You wrote "How many field dogs have you trained? How many titled obedience dogs have you trained and I'm not talking through just CD level, but through UD level? More so obedience dogs with field titles? How many chessies have you owned? And maybe I should ask how many service dogs have you trained?" HOW DID THAT COME UP - your anger/frustration surfacing?
What does that have to do with "FFing a SD"? Read my posts. I said "FF teaches/instills the Necessity of the Dog to always retrieve/return with object(again great if always the same circumstances are presented, but not realistic for SDs)". DO YOU
THINK I'M ANTI-FF? Also wrote "The dog is set-up or placed in a position to respond/react. The dog is released or given a command to retrieve. Now, does he or not. FF is essential as a foundation so he will. A FT/HT dog or a hunting dog that will not retrieve is useless in the field - JOB DESCRIPTION: Retrieve Prey!!" Again, FF is essential & necessary - just not
for a SD. By the way, I personally trained over 1000 SD's. Without FF and they still retrieve/get objects when commanded.
Charlie

Kent said it well. And I have known 2 Chessie service dogs that were trained through Canine Companion and interestingly enough, as I recall, Lisa's old Tony was their sire!!

More recently, the Bonnie Bergen's Service Dog Institute is right down the street from my o/b club's training facility, and some of the gals going through the courses there came up to our o/b facility and started working my chessies. One of the trainers there is also a long time member of my o/b club and breeds and successvully competes with Goldens in obedience, field trials, and agility having titles many dogs, and does a lot of training and work with the students and dogs at the service dog institute. She also advocates force fetching.

One last comment, if a Chesapeake has to be force-fetched to make him retrieve birds, then I don't want to waste my time on the dog. There has to be natural ability first and the FF process just enhances and reenforces the retrieving along with the go out and the return, and like Kent said, the degree of force depends strictly on the dog itself.

Kathy Miller

Dr. please go to a field trial. What is required of a dog is more than just a FF. FF in the whole picture is as minor as the command sit. Poeple seem to think there is something scientific about FF. If you teach sit then teach FF. you will need that tool just as the command sit is a tool.

Also Toller has no clue.

Go to a field trial and hopefully you will see one chessie running. If you see two or more it's a chessie specialty.

quote:

Dr. please go to a field trial. What is required of a dog is more than just a FF. FF in the whole picture is as minor as the command sit. Poeple seem to think there is something scientific about FF. If you teach sit then teach FF. you will need that tool just as the command sit is a tool.

Also Toller has no clue.

Go to a field trial and hopefully you will see one chessie running. If you see two or more it's a chessie specialty.

Mike, excellent advice!! I've been trying to think of a tactful way to tell Doc to stick to service dog training and leave the Chesapeake/field dog advice to those who know what it's all about!

My only hostility is towards those who offer advice in an area of training in which they have no hands-on experience. I learned the hard way many years ago with both horses and Chesapeakes, and try to keep other people from falling into that pitfall! It's obvious Charlie has no idea what makes a field dog tick, or perhaps even an obedience competition dog! And training a service dog is in many respects different from training field dogs or competitive obedience dogs, though dogs trained in these venues would make great service dogs!

As an added note, in my AKC member obedience club, our trainers must have finished titles through UD in order to be considered knowledgeable trainers for our club classes even at puppy-K and beginner levels. And our agility trainers must have competitive obedience experience as well. Our current agility trainer has finished MACH dogs, UD obedience dogs, and hunt test dogs through Master leven and runs trial dogs, plus she is a trainer at the service dog institute.

Kathy Miller

Kath all I know is the I envy you. You've been invited to train with the big guys (woman)Yip Yip get the clue?