And you have tested all of the offspring and out of your litter of ten...two of them came back A/A. Fortunatly (?!?!?!) it was "only two" as you know that you could have bred a litter with many more A/A pups.

What do you do with those two puppies?

Your not the type to "tie a rock on them and find a deep hole in the lake."

Do you sell them (they cost as much to produce as the rest of them) or give them away?

Of course your FAVORITE in the litter (a little bitch puppy that has incredible drive and desire and looks that knock your socks off. Heck you just bred the first BISS DUAL CH AFC MH dog!!!) is tested A/A.

What do you do?

I ask this question as I have an A/N bitch of breeding age. I am breeding her to a N/N dog for her first breeding, but have several A/N dogs I am looking at for her second breeding. There are also several dogs who's DM status is "unknown" and the owner would have to sacrifice a straw of semen for them to get definitive test results.

I try to be "responsible." I test, I show, I do "stuff" with my dogs.

I know I am not the only one who is "on the fence" about breedings like this and I know at one point I most likly WILL do a breeding like this...I just don't know what to do with the pup that doesn't fit *my* criteria for a pup I'd like to keep and happens to test A/A.

Some breeders have been in the breeding game for long enough to know basically what their "line" of dogs health is. For those of us that are still fairly new...we rely on the honestly of the breeders that we got our dogs from. Many of them are not 100% honest or they do not track or have any knowledge of their own dogs health history.

People say don't let the DM test sway your decision on breeding, but with a question like this floating around...it is hard NOT to let N/N status dogs/bitches not influence you.

Oops! I though my signature would show up...it didn't.

Kathy Case
Whiskey Creek Chesapeakes
www.WhiskeyCreekChesapeakes.com

Kathy

I would suggest you start to set the standard. Let the buyer be aware, you be up front and honest with the buyer or if you decide to keep the AA pup(s).

Of course no swimming in the bag for these pups (or any other pup or even cats).

Honesty in the breeding circles will be an odd concept to some of them, but it will all show up in the end.

Jeff

kathy

I imagine your thoughts and questions are in line with MANY breeders.....Both my 'breeding' prospects are A/N....there are a number of A/N dogs that I would love to breed my bitch to.....

that was why I wrote the 'riding the fence' post in the Chat section of the board....

I guess I am just curious as to WHAT people are saying who have DONE carrier to carrier breedings. Surely there have been some crarrier to carrier breedings since the DM test has been out.

I will tell you what I did, as I have an AA bitch that had an "oops" litter a year ago and the pups were so nice we bred her to a similar (but less closely related) male. He fortunately tested clear so we know none of the pups will be at risk.

When I sold the oops pups, we hadn't planned to breed her because her sire Canvas had DM, and the owners had gone public 6 mos. earlier so it was pretty widely known. I sold all the pups on limited registrations and disclosed to all the buyers about DM (almost none had heard of it).
With her pups due next month, we already know they would all be AN so we won't test, but we will still disclose that since her sire and pups' grandsire died of DM they should take that into consideration if they decide to breed.

I do NOT sell guaranteed breeding sound and I sell a lot (most) on Limited Reg. unless the buyer is known to me. There is too much that is out of your hands when a pup leaves. I do guarantee them to be functionally sound with replacement or money back if it isn't.

At some point BUYERS are going to have to take some risk if they want a breeding prospect and select the criteria that's most important to them. It's all a risk, anytime you get a baby puppy no matter what you want it for, how careful the breeder was and now many clearances the parents had.

Julie-
I do think that buyers have to take some responsibilities, but not when me as the breeder did a breeding that I know can produce A/A puppies. And that is my concern.

With that said, I don't want to close my oppertunity with breedings because of the the "limited" knowledge (meaning we do not know what "turns on" the gene for an A/A dog) we currently have.


Kathy
www.WhiskeyCreekChesapeakes.com

Kathy C, Juli wrote this on another thread: ""I guess my thoughts are that most likely(hopefully) someone who is breeding carrier to carrier is doing so because there is a lot to offer in the breeding of the two dogs. Enough to outweigh the risk of producing A/A pups."
I wrote in response:
"True, but, carrier to carrier breeding IS necessary anyway to adequately maintain a viable breed.
If you only want to breed a carrier to a clear only (N/A x N/N), besides eventually having a bottleneck of genes and risk
numerous problems genetically from occuring, where is the breeding stock - look at the few percentage of N/N dogs so far."

Realistically a breeder has to "take risks" in order to maintain the cbr breed as we know it. Selective breeding that omits or neglects certain dogs from the 'breeding stock' because they are a "carrier" would eventually lead to disaster.
Consider if everyone only bred an carrier to a clear (NA x NN), the potential problems are too numerous. What if the NN dogs lack a certain gene for something else? Or by narrowing the gene pool, become 'bottlenecked' where other diseases and
ailments start surfacing? Plus where will you find adequate numbers of NN dogs to breed to? And that number will get smaller - since NA x NN breedings will still produce more carrers (NA) anyway.

So, breeding has become slightly more complicated by adding a new 'wrinkle' - DM at risk (AA). However, still managable.
I would say any breeding that has the potential to produce a exceptional litter should proceed, despite it being a NAxNA
breeding. In other words, IF you feel that this would be a 'great' or 'worthwhile' breeding, then it should occur. Charlie

quote:

Originally posted by Whiskey Creek:
And you have tested all of the offspring and out of your litter of ten...two of them came back A/A. Fortunatly (?!?!?!) it was "only two" as you know that you could have bred a litter with many more A/A pups.

What do you do with those two puppies?

explain the importance of genetic diversity First, I would say exactly what the OFA site says about thinking about the DM test-treating as a bad bite or a topline. Explain the reason for your breeding- the importance of genetic diversity, the quality of the parents, history or lack of DM in the pedigree.; explain this is only a susceptibility test; late on set if the disease does occur. Explain why the dog is on a limited registration. And if not neutered, draw up a binding breeding agreement so you have some imput into any breeding of the dog.


I know I am not the only one who is "on the fence" about breedings like this and I know at one point I most likly WILL do a breeding like this...I just don't know what to do with the pup that doesn't fit *my* criteria for a pup I'd like to keep and happens to test A/A.

explain the importance of genetic diversity If you did this breeding for the qualities the puppy has, keep it. You KNOW you can breed to a normal and maintain some connection to this dog's attributes.


People say don't let the DM test sway your decision on breeding, but with a question like this floating around...it is hard NOT to let N/N status dogs/bitches not influence you.

explain the importance of genetic diversity You need to plan your breedings for the whole dog and if it is hard for you, don't even put the DM status into the equation until you have decided this is the BEST combination.

Dyane

quote:

Originally posted by Whiskey Creek:
And you have tested all of the offspring and out of your litter of ten...two of them came back A/A. Fortunatly (?!?!?!) it was "only two" as you know that you could have bred a litter with many more A/A pups.

What do you do with those two puppies?

Your not the type to "tie a rock on them and find a deep hole in the lake."

Do you sell them (they cost as much to produce as the rest of them) or give them away?

First off, as the breeder I would be 100% responsible for those puppies. I would not put them down, I would look to place them in homes that have been educated on DM and the testing that we have so far - whether those are breeding homes, working/performance sport homes or pet homes depends on the other attributes of the puppy and what it is best suited for, through structure, temperament & working instincts. I don't expect I would be reducing the price on these puppies.

If appropriate homes can not be found, then they stay with me, for their full lifes if need be. Even if I had a litter of 12 that were all A/A, as the breeder I am the one responsible for these puppies, as it was MY choice to bring them into this world. I feel VERY strongly about this, and really wish more breeders would take responsibility for the dogs they bring into this world! (not bitching about people on this board, but at the "dog world" in general)

quote:

Of course your FAVORITE in the litter (a little bitch puppy that has incredible drive and desire and looks that knock your socks off. Heck you just bred the first BISS DUAL CH AFC MH dog!!!) is tested A/A.

What do you do?

I keep her! Absolutely no reason to not keep her, and to breed her, and especially if her quality is so high! I feel it would be irresponsible to NOT breed this 'hypothetical' dog. If our goal is to breed to improve, then we need to be breeding our best quality dogs, not just the ones with the 100% perfect/ideal test results.

Personally I would only feel comfortable breeding this 'hypothetical' bith to a N/N, but being A/A is NOT a reason for a dog to be removed from the gene pool!