Sometimes there are things in a dog- or man's live you think about.

"In the past is the future",is an old saying in my country.

If you look at the development of the Chesapeake through the years from the (end)19th to the 20th century,one is looking at numbers(population),breeding and the facilities,the hunting and training,the workingtests,non- and competitive one's,the fieldtrials and confirmation.
And than the big comparison between the retrievers,why lab's and golden's are doing this or that better,and why are Chesapeakes better in this or that esp.HUNTING??
How about the genes of a lab,compared to a Chessie,in or what so ever.?

Is it training,food,condition,mind,envirement,health.......

A lot's of dogs are trained,feed ,enviremental the same,also condition,housing etc.etc.
Is it still subjective or can we also be objective because of what so ever, let's say to become topten in- or complete the NATIONAL.

I read a lot about the browndog on team chesapeake or where I can get it from and I feel myself still as a lonesome wolf.Gathering,training,thinking,looking at behaviour,compare with the other dogs,taking this from that and so on and on......
It seems to me that we don't have a circusdog,plse don't misunderstand me,and we have a dog with such a complex and strong genes,that we hardly can handle them as.........(fill in what retriever you want but esp. a thru nature bred dog,very much in his origine like his forfather with all the good and difficult things).
It's always a big challenge with our dogs and to discover the character,is a big puzzle.(I don't mean with a COLLAR,but naturally)
It's not a nine to five dog,but what it is......... after 23 years of brown dogs,it is still a mystery to me.

There will be a time that we can look into those genes,but meanwhile we have to go a long way with our brown dogs to become FIRST in retrieverworld!!!!(Or in the opposite,must we achieve this or should we be glad to have a such fine and reliable partner in nature????)

But how to achieve that,genetic,breeding or what??????
Dominique

I believe the answer does involve breeding and that means selective breeding from a larger gene pool.
A larger gene pool would require an increase number of people training and developing desired traits. Selection of these traits over several generations could then put the breed in a better position. The CBR not being a popular breed is both a curse and a blessing. We don't have a large gene pool but we have also remained somewhat protected from perpetuating unwanted traits.
Historically, in field trials on the US eastcoast the CBR was the dominate breed in the '30s and '40s. Since the CBR is known to be not as "tractable" as the other retriever breeds and as the professionally trained dog became the dominate field trail dog those wanting to win field trials went to labs. Hence over the decades the lab field trial people have created a deep gene pool.
We could argue that they ruined the rest of the labrador breed. That may be the price of of large scale selective breeding.

Tim

Another consideration could be that chessie's mature slower than labs. Chessie's are not very flexible when it comes to changing handlers (owner to pro). And maybe chessie's tolerate the e-collar differently than labs.They are not forgiving so you can't make many mistakes when using the e collar.

I've never been a big believer that CBRs mature slower. I've seen high performing young dogs and dogs that take longer to grasp technical concepts in all 3 breeds.
I do agree about changing handlers. IMHO a CBR needs to like (or at least respect) you if you want a their best performance.
The collar business is part of the "tractability".

Tim

Tim,
-is your opinion about maturing a general idea or is it part.yours?
-what do you mean about respect and how do you achieve this?
-What means IMHO?(I'm a foreigner,you know....)
-Is there an overview in genetic lines compared with 30-40 years ago??I mean if you look specially to my first question??
Thanks
Dominique

DD,
In terms of the "maturing" issue I am sure you can find people that believe both ways. Personally on this issue I prefer to look at the individual dog and the the breed as a whole.
IMHO = In my humble opinion
Like and respect the handler: Many of the CBRs I have trained or have been around in training need to know that the handler knows what they are doing. If not, the dog tends to work the way it wants. These personality traits of the breed IMHO are best presented in an article by John Dahl. You can find this at: www.oakhillkennel.com then click on library.
A complete picture CBR genetics over the last 40 years would be a mamoth undertaking. As far as field trial performance you can trace the majority of all AKC Field and Amateur Field Champions to 2 sires of the late 1950's and early 1960's:Atom Bob and Tule Tiger. There has been 8-10 generations of crosses since these 2 dogs but when looking at where your modern field trial CBR most will go back to one or both of these dogs.

Tim

I enjoyed reading your reply. I was wondering whether you felt the following CBR have any impact- FC AFC CH Coots Gypsy Clipper MH; FC CFC Fireweeds Aleutian Widgeon?

Both excellent dogs! I don't know about Clipper but much of the Aleutian name goes back to Atom Bob. I'm sure I'll be corrected if wrong!

Good morning to All'

A very interesting string!

I agree with Timmy; ALL dogs are individuals and this trait is one that best exemplifies the fact and one that TRAINERS must, closely, examine.

To get the most out of any dog (peakes included), the animal must respect you as the "pack lead-dog"-which goes further than alot of trainers are willing to! The dog doesn't, necessarily, have to like you to work well for you, but, he MUST RESPECT YOU!! Note: there is a difference between "work well" and "get the most that the animal has to offer." Yes, Tim, peakes do better with a trainer that knows WHAT THEY ARE DOING but, then, so would every other retriever! It gets back to how far are you willing to go to establish/MAINTAIN the pack-lead!?!

Moscowitz, chessapeakes are extremely smart(accurate generalization of the breed-FACT)and they DO NOT FORGET; if you put a skeleton in their closet, it will be there for a very long time(if not for life!) How forgiving they are is, IMHO(new acronym for me to,thanks), an individual characteristic-how severe was the trainers screw-up? It is a common practice within our training group to handle eachother's dogs so if/when the time arrives, the dog will not be tramatized; obviously you must have faith in/trust your training partners to bestow this responsibility!

Dual/AFC Clipper MH is lined on FC Widgeon; both outstanding producers. FC Widgeon's younger sister was Dual Fireweeds Jasmine-last peake to go 10 @1984 National Amat- also an outstanding producer(Dual/AFC Jessie mother of Dual/AFC Lizzy). Clipper is a Widgeon grandson bred to a Jasmine daughter. Both of these were sired by FC/AFC Aleutian Surf Breaker(ANOTHER PRODUCER) who was an Atom Bob son bred to an Atom Bob granddaughter-right again Timmy!! In a nutshell, ALL(THAT'S EVERY LAST ONE) of our current titled field peakes probably every QAA field trial dogs(a little help LVL!) can be traced thru FC/AFC/CFC/CAFC Chip,Surf,thru Atom Bob,Tule Tiger,thru Nelgard's Baron and Rip Tide, Mallard,thru Chesacroft Baron to our FIRST DUAL CH SODAK'S GYPSY PRINCE (1936). Coincidence?!? I think not!!! 70 years of selective breeding mmmmmmm. . . . PERHAPS! Right out of Eloise's "The Complete Chesapeake Bay Retriever-Howell Book House,Inc-1987"

Well I've rambled enough ; time to get two spuirts to the vets!

Very interesting stuff Dominique! Every one should put that much thought into their Nappy Dogs!

Best of Luck in 2004!

Bruce

All Chesapeakes descend from Tiger's Cub. That's ALL, as in world-wide. Approximately half of those come down through CFC/CAFC/Ch Ironwoods Stone E Cubs.

All FT-bred Chessies have a healthy dose of Surf Breaker and/or Chip in their pedigrees. Surf comes through three main families: Fireweed through Widgeon, Caroway through Jazzie, and Sunshine through the Surf x Sally breedings. All The FT pedigrees have some combination of these. Chip was used as an outcross to many of the bitches from these three Surf lines, and Barry was the other outcross (Barry is primarily old Mt Joy and Baronland lines). A lot of non-FT bred dogs go to these same individuals. Scratch the surface of most any pedigree, and you will find Surf, Chip, Cub, and so forth.

The difference is SELECTION. It's not enough to have good paper, the generations between then and now needed to be selected for the positive traits, otherwise the contributions of those great dogs will be negligible. That's why it's important to know the records and qualities of the parents and grandparents of a pup or stud dog. If the genes aren't there, then all you have is a pretty piece of paper.

Personally, I think that FT-bred Chessies today are much more trainable and biddable than when I first started in the 70s. Back then, I remember hearing about the big washout rate Rex had with the breed, and people blamed Rex, but it was the DOGS; characteristically hard-headed, surly, not willing to please anyone, even those they respected. Thankfully, temperaments have inproved exponentially since those long-ago days.

Lisa

Tim,
thanks for Oakhill,I did read the whole thing,makes me a lot wiser,thanks again!!!!
Mike,I agree that the brown dogs have a good memory for whar WE are doing wrong in THERE opinion.(and they EASILY forget the opposite,hahahaha)
Bruce,thanks for the compliment,and what I try to achieve is what you say,tailormade and NO confection.
What I really see now that the lines you're talking about are the real lines for FT's and thanks to all the breeders in there effort to go on and on,and it really cost them a lot of time and money,nowadays we can choose,with a little luck,the line we want for what so ever.
From JBMitchell via CBRS4ME came a lot of info breeding with the Coincedencefigure of inbreeding(thank you Tim,I think it was a hell of a job to achieve this).
Also on Chesapeake Rollcall you can find a lot of info.
You don't have to measure anymore,it's there and you also can see by putting the names of the sire and dam,how it will end on what so ever,great(IMHO.yes Tim this foreigner learns quick,hahahahah!!!)
Lisa,your comments are coming right from my hart since I have a puppy from Linda Harger.
So since that time,while I was training here and it was so EASY to train and everything went so smooth and quick unbelivable!!,that's why all these questions since the last one year came up in my mind and see what is happening!!
I did read a lot about the FT dogs and your QAA statistics over and over again and and try to find pedigrees,kennels in the USA and Canada and Europe,just to see and compare all the lines on FT and ALSO confirmation, also everyday I did look at Team Chesapeake about the FT results and I'm so sure that you guys have a guiding role in all of these things and yes also abroad and I'm glad I discovered Team Chesapeakes and now who are we going on???

LVL, a wealth of chesapeake knowledge, you never disappoint us !

Selection is key, and was my point- 70 years worth! Of the non-FT dogs with the same pedigree, what they would have/could have done or produced, one can only speculate. Did they geta shot,a good/fair shot or did their potential go untaped?!? Obviously, the POTENTIAL of the dogs/lines that I referred to did get taped into/was realized and utilized lucky for ALL OF US!! The "RIGHT GENES" are in today's Modern Field Peake.

Hearing about Rex's wash-out rates and making assumptions without knowing all the particulars-I.E. talent,desire, and temperment of the dogs in question,along with "cutting-edge techniques" used at the time-and making a blanket generalizations about a genre of dogs, that many will take as gospel, seems a bit impetuous. Without witnessing first hand, how would you know that they were ALL BLOCKHEADS? As we all know, bad news outdistances good news everytime!

Question: what percentage of our current field peakes would blossom on a pros truck 10 months a year? If they are sooo much more biddable today, then they would be thriving like the "gentleman's choice".

Not only is it our conscienctiously selective breeding but our tools, training techniques and our understanding of canine psyche has evolved exponentially!


Quote
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All Chesapeakes descend from Tiger's Cub. That's ALL, as in world-wide. Approximately half of those come down through CFC/CAFC/Ch Ironwoods Stone E Cubs.
___________________________________________

P.S. check SN026577/02 and tell me how it is that every chesapeake IN THE WORLD traces thru Cub????

" All Chesapeakes descend from Tiger's Cub. That's ALL, as in world-wide"

Lisa,
Beware of the ghost of Helen Fleischman.

This was really a great discussion concerning the history of chessie's. This is what is great about this web page compared to the other web pages including ACC.

In regards to information posted on the "trainablility" of the field trial prospects our beloved breed 25-30 years ago (and longer) one needs to be reminded of not only the "cutting edge techniques" of the time but the use of equipment that was "primitive" in comparison to what is available today from Tri-Tronics and other companies producing electronic collars. A lot of collars without variable intensity, malfunctioning frequently and used by some trainers incorrectly played a huge part in the success or failure ratio.

"Wash out" rates were high with all retriever breeds at all training kennels using "collar" programs. These dogs had to be "tough" to take the "pounding" of a "5" every day. It was like being hit by "Chuck Bednarick" of the Eagles in the '60's (now there's a real football player-one the last pros to play both offense & defense and play hurt).

It was a major accomplishment just to have a "Peake" make it thru the "Basics". A lot of really nice, "softer" dogs never had a chance and some never recovered from "mechanical" failures. At that time, you could not turn off the electrical stimulation at the transmitter in the event of failure like you can today. Those "skeleton's in the closet" were "burned" into the mind of a Peake for a very long time. Backup collars were necessary because they were in the "shop" all the time.

But you know what, thank God for Rex Carr (his programs are the basis and standard for most of the really successful pros and amateurs). Also, thank God for "Surf Breaker", "Bay City Jake" and "Nanuk of Cheslang" and many other wonderful Peakes before and since that provided those "selective" genes" and "bottom" that is necessary to produce a field trial Peake. I think Steve Parker said at one time "You get Performance dogs from Performance Males bred to Performance Bitches." And thank God for the Chesapeake Bitches Steve bred, trained and handled. Not only were they talented but they possessed a lot of that necessary "bottom end." That toughness allowed them to run for a long time and still be bred when they were past their prime. We could use more like them today.

Over twenty years ago I was very to fortunate to train and spend quite a bit of time with a very well-respected Amateur trainer who was a research professor at CSU in Ft. Collins. His wife, was every bit as talented and on occasion spent winter months Rex Carr's in Ca. Lab and collar folks to the core. They had several well-bred Lab yougsters in the early '80s that were very, very tough and did not have the best of temperments. One in particlur often had "mulitple collars" strapped around his burly neck and "alligator clips" connected to his ears from the collar. It took that much to "get to him." Needless to say, after hearing all of the negative comments about Chesapeake personality and temperment in those days, which took place frequently, I had a lot of great laughs to myself. At the same time, I was wishing my "Chip" x "PJ's Tumbleweed" (Chesapeake) son had only half of the bottom end that "Ty" (Lab) had. Let's not pick on our "Old Peakes" too much.

And you know, as Gary Kavan said to me once long ago, "You got to have it (meaning toughness) to do this field trial stuff. You can take it out of them, but you can put it back in them." Gary and Bill, thanks for "Little Sally", "Jesse", "Sarah", "Boss" and "Suade" and all of their offspring that have those necessary qualites.

And of course, there is "Decks." One look at his pedigree gives a glimpse at "Performance." Personally, I love the "Surf" stuff on both sides of a Peake pedigree.

Keith

Goodmorning to all!!

I wish to thank you for your info you put in this part.topic.
Mike you're wright,this is unique,so open,honoust and helpfull to go on.
Keith;should there be always "SURF"on both sides or is that what you prefer??

The ancient man and woman did the same,gathering info and communicate.They told a lot of stories to their children,grandchildren.....

I'm always scared that we loose a lot of info,because we don't know everything.
Bits and pieces would help us regarding to the past breeders,owners and esp. the dogs,to go on.
In this topic everyone is telling something and is so contributing a lot of info and experience,how can we go on??

Because in the past is the future,or do I ask too much??(I apoligize if it's so)

I really "EAT"this info.
It takes a lot of courage to tell here what you think and do.(See also the question of Keith in top of Team Chesapeake regarding who is going to do what,that's great to put such a question in this Team than you must have a lot of confidence in this Team!!!)

Should the EASTCOAST begin and NORTH and then MID's the SOUTH and then the WESTCOAST.????
It's like the Olymipic Flame and yes Tim you're still right it's a hell of a job,but we must consider that we have to do a job,our breeders,owners and dogs of the last 50-100 years,we own them something,they did there job and we do ours, to bring our brown dogs on that place,they "REALLY"deserve.
DD

Dominique You are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!!

A wise man once shared a real gem with me; his name is Earl Richardson and has owned chessies for over 20 years(most recently Chesany's Fresh Catch MH-Open win-QAA). We were judging a Derby/Qual together, Decks was 3years old and running well and I,being the "newby", had a million questions. Curious, about some of the "Field Trial Shaftings" that I received, Earl cautioned me, and I quote:

"Bruce beware, most of all, of running under OTHER CHESAPEAKE OWNERS, . . . CHESAPEAKE OWNERS ARE LIKE IRISHMEN, THEY DON'T CARE WHO'S WINNING, AS LONG AS IT'S NOT ANOTHER IRISHMAN! ! !" (and I can say this being of Irish decent!).

At first I said "that's ridiculous!" But if you run ALOT and run well, it's bound to happen--and RIGHT MR. RICHARDSON WAS/IS/AND ALWAYS WILL BE! ! ! A pessimist I am not! But what Earl cautioned of, happened to me a number of times. Man continues to struggle with two emotions, that have been with us since the beginning of time, envy and jealousy.

The Good Lord has blessed us with some fine animals and for that I am eternally greatful!

We, as owners of these magnificent animals, should be "circling the wagons" against larger nemisises! ! ! How GRAND IT WAS to watch the faces of the competitors/gallery when Joy's, Kenny's and Scott's Can-Man and Angie's, Kurt's and Linda's Blaze finished FIRST and THIRD in the OPEN at S.Jersey's trial! ! ! Being a "BIG FISH IN THE BIG POND, is EXPONENTIALLY GREATER, than the big fish in a little one! ! ! ! ! !"

GOOD LUCK TO EVERYONE- THAT'S ALL!(EVERYONE IN THE ENTIRE WORLD) IN THEIR "CHESAPEAKE K-9 ENDEAVORS, TODAY, TOMORROW, AND ALWAYS! ! !

Sincerely

Bruce

Once again, my proof reading needs help. In the second to the last paragragh it should be "You can take it out of them, but you CAN NOT put it back in to them."

DD-I have enjoyed your comments, including the significance of "history" and "communication."

Over the years, some very knowledgeable folks have written interesting pieces about the contributions of "FC/AFC Aleutian Surf Breaker" and we still talk about him now. His brother "AFC Nanuk of Cheslang" had over 100 combined All-Age points in Canada and the US. Quite a pair from the "The Big Fellow" owned by John Lundy out of his "FC/AFC Atom Bob."

We all have our favorites and there are other really nice Peakes out there, but for me, I really liked what I had in my Chesapeakes of the 80's and the good ones all had "Surf" blood up close. In addition to talent, they had lots of "bottom end." Toughness to see them thru difficult times. Since I am a product of the '60's, I relate that phrase ("bottom end") to the motors in the old Vette's from the 50's and 60's I once owned and restored in my other life. There is nothing like whine of a "Fuelie" at 7-8000rpm or roar of a 427-435hp big block-you could run the "hell" out of them for a long time. They could take the "heat." Most of the "Surf" offspring could take the "heat", including the bitches.

Go back and look at all of the first and second generation All-Age females "Surf" produced in the late '70's and '80's and several in the '90's. Compare that to what is running now. Big difference in titles and numbers. However, we have some up and coming femles (in addition to the ones already QAA) and a lot of that "Surf" blood so prevalent in "Boss Dawg's" pedigree is flowing in: "BurOak's Neutron Meg", "Crossbar's Raggedy Ann", "Crossfire's Bizzy Lizzy", "Crossfire's Genuine Citori" and of course "Delmarva's Prairie Storm" and "Buroak's Authentic Jessica." High percentages in limited breeding for Mr. "Boss."

Take care,

Keith

PS. I am going to attach an old photo of "Nanuk" from an ACC bulletin in Dec. of '75. Maybe Billy would be so kind to open it. Thanks!

Bulletin_12-75_email.jpg (35 Kb, 447 downloads) Nanuk of Cheslang

As for Ken and Bruce,
this topic is going right away in the direction I think we should contribute and see that Ken is putting a very nice picture of Nanuk and Hans Kuck in!!
Bruce telling about what he thinks,plse sent more and tell more,let's go on and on and on....
What kind of dog was or is WIDGEON,SURF,COOT's
Atom Bob,Rex etcetc,Not only the "normal"things but what made or make them so special??
DD

quote:

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P.S. check SN026577/02 and tell me how it is that every chesapeake IN THE WORLD traces thru Cub????

---

Not sure I understand the question. If you are wondering if Decks goes to Cub, the answer is yes, through Clipper. Clipper's sire is from Widgeon bred to one of the old Cub x Maggie cross, the combination of Baronland and Mount Joy.


I think a lot of times, Cub is just a name on paper, but it is there, everywhere.


Lisa