We have a new litter due anyday now...Dustin's One Smokin' Gun X Dustin's Little Angelfire. Puppies will be well socialized, have dewclaws removed, and first shots. These puppies come from an excellent line of hunting dogs and will be terrific in the field!!

We are accepting deposits now...$100 non-refundable. Puppies are $550 for males and females.

We are not a professional breeder. We love the breed and want to see it continue to be strong.

Please email ptejhe@aol.com for more information or if you have any questions.

Tina,

I've got to say that I am not really comfortable with this ad.

Some people have contacted me about not letting people post ads without OFA and CERF info. That's a policy I don't necessarily agree with. -But where I do disagree with it is when a dog has other tangible redeeming factors that make it's inclusion into the gene pool something to consider.

I don't like to police the ads as a rule. But what I'm seeing is an untitled sire and dam. No type of PRA history, no CERFs, and the puppies dam has hip dysplasia .

That just seems contrary to what you say at the bottom of your ad, where you say

quote:

We love the breed and want to see it continue to be strong.

So, I'm going to let this ad stay for now. With a disclaimer to the general public..."If Team Chesapeake had rules for posting ads, you wouldn't be seeing this one."

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Paul Brown,

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Paul don't get hot and bothered. The ad was questionable when posted. I would think if your on this site you could spot a problem.

I don't think Paul was being hot and bothered, I thought Paul's post was tactful.
Litter dam OFA info

Not just dysplastic, but severely dysplastic and by the owner's own admission in previous posts, clumsy and prone to hurting herself.
Shame on the owners for breeding her. I wonder if the puppies come with a guarantee?

In researching the posts by Tina, it looks to me as if the dog was possibly bred very near or before her hips were xrayed??

she posted a question about pregnancy in dogs on March 28 and noted that the bitch had been bred March 1....and the OFA records indicate that they read the films and submitted them on March 20....which is the same day she posted the question regarding unilateral hip-displaysia...

I do not agree with breeding a bitch or dog that doesn't have at least a 'good' hip rating...and I hope for the puppie's sakes that her displaysia was injury caused..and not gentetic...

let's not forget that there have been a few stud dogs that were bred, and they did not have ofa #'s or were known to have other genetic faults, such as bad bites, or produced PRA......

Juli

All makes a good argument for selling pups on limited registrations, and refusing to consider changing to full reg. until all health clearances are done and it is determined that the dog warrants being bred.

quote:

Originally posted by Juli:
In researching the posts by Tina, it looks to me as if the dog was possibly bred very near or before her hips were xrayed??

The bitch turned 2 in January. Bred in March. I'm sure she had an idea of what the x-rays looked like.

quote:

I do not agree with breeding a bitch or dog that doesn't have at least a 'good' hip rating

quote:

let's not forget that there have been a few stud dogs that were bred, and they did not have ofa #'s or were known to have other genetic faults, such as bad bites, or produced PRA......

I disagree with that philosophy. That's why I won't restrict ads. If there was a CFC CAFC Blackberry Springs Barry litter listed on here, I would want to buy one, OFA # or not! ASAP!

OFA is pretty clear where they stand on it. They give clearance numbers to dogs with fair ratings.

Go through the OFA database and see how many dogs there are with Good or Excellent ratings. You would end up with a small gene pool indeed.

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quote:

Originally posted by Moscowitz:
Paul don't get hot and bothered. The ad was questionable when posted. I would think if your on this site you could spot a problem.

I'm not a Lawyer Mike, but if I was, I would point out that the person who posted the ad is "on the site", and evidently they didn't spot a problem...

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Paul,

You could take the first "Barry" pup, I would beg, borrow or steal to take the second and there would be no advertising needed to sell the rest.

But then again, I sure loved my male out of "Barry" x "Go Dixie Go" from long ago.

I think your posts are right on.

Keith

As you suggested Paul,

I went to OFA and this is the info I found
21% displastic
7.3 fair
53.4% good
11.4% exc

Now, I am not sure why that doesn't all add up to 100%....I researched final reports and not prelims? (I don't know if they inlcude prelims in their 'final' tally.)

with a little more research, I did see that some dogs and bitches with fair ratings were producing dogs with good or better hip evaluations...so maybe my thought process is off...which it has been known to be!

I just think we owe it to our dogs to do our best and try to continually improve the breed.....of course if I saw a dog (in person) that just blew my socks off and he/she had only fair hips (and was bred to another outstanding dog)..you bet I'd be on a pup in a heartbeat(if I could ) .....


IT is important to look at the 'whole' dog...and not just one aspect...I understand that!

as far as breedability I wonder which poor trait would absolutely keep someone from breeding? I mean if the dog was very good in every other way...
I think for me it would be temperment.....(given that all other aspects of a very good retriever were present)


Juli

Quality of X-Rays and who is intrepreting them at the time of judgement (knowledge/experience of those on the OFA boad) plays a part in the rating as well....I have also been told that you should not have a bitches hips x-rayed when she is in season or close to coming in season.....that was new to me..!?

In the past we had a dog who did not even pass OFA........the vet who took the original x-rays was so adament about the fact that he should have passed, that he sent us to another vet (whom he recommended) to have another x-ray taken and submitted......well this time the dog got an OFA rating of 'GOOD'.........Now if our vet wouldn't have been so positive about this dogs hips, we would never have had them redone.....

Just sayin'..........no system is perfect!

Norene S.

The original post by "ptejhe" has really stirred up some discussion amongst you breeders & individuals. Not 1 Chesapeake is a perfect dog and I would much rather buy a puppy from a line that had a terrific temperament, than how great their OFA rating is. Plus, I'd rather buy a dog from a family that isn't looking to make $900-$1000 per puppy. "Ptejhe" doesn't sound like someone trying to put food on the table by selling her dam's puppies.

I've read some of your other posts and personally the OFA's rating is all done by individuals making their expert opinion. Norene S. who posted the last comment shows evidence of the fact that the OFA is not, by any means, always correct on their ratings. It really depends on the dam's placement during the x-ray, and the "time of month" in which the dam was taken to the vet to have the x-ray performed.

I'm also stunned to read that most breeders or individuals on this site have said that they will not purchase a puppy from a litter where the stud is not titled. Honestly, that's disturbing. My Chesapeake is not titled and is the best hunting dog that we have ever had. We don't have time to take her to field trials and compete against others in her breed and we're not interested in it either.

I think maybe that this has gone too far in the breeding world. Dogs can still become dysplastic even if they've come from a line of the best OFA-rated dogs. HD is not going to be erased from dogs in general. Plus, who's to say that "ptejhe's" dam is going to have a puppy with HD? She got it from somewhere in her pedigree, right? Her siblings may not have it, but they can be carriers and if they are bred...oops, a possibility that a puppy from that litter may turn out to have HD. It's a vicious cycle and one that you all cannot control however hard you try.

I don't think OFA is a great foundation and one that if I bred my dog I would take the necessary steps to breeding correctly, however, I agree with Norene S...."no system is perfect." Hip Dysplasia has been incorrectly diagnosed by the OFA...there's evidence in NOrene's dog. Who's to say that "ptejhe's" dam wasn't misdiagnosed because there may be a possiblity of trauma to that dog's hip? Lots of things to consider here.

I think it's best to leave "ptejhe" alone...I bet those pups will be wonderful hunting companions and overall family dogs. Any family would be blessed to have one of her dam's pups. I would!~

Oops...I meant to say that the OFA is a great foundation after previewing my reply...sorry for the mistake.

quote:

Originally posted by Treva:
I'd rather buy a dog from a family that isn't looking to make $900-$1000 per puppy.

..

I think we owe it to the breeder to pay a fair price for a pup....

litter of 8 puppies would bring in a total of $8000......
This may not cover the cost of losing a bitch, if the worst should happen - or having to pay for c-section or other emergency surgeries for the dam or pup(s), shipping the bitch for breeding, or paying for AI, plus vet expenses for the pups and dam, whelping supplies, high quality feed for the bitch and pups...

AND the TIME (2 months) it takes to raise a litter of pups properly, after they have been whelped (especially if you do things such as early stimualtion) How much time do you spend with your pups each day Norene?...Time required might include having to take time off work to properly care for the pups and dam. And then you have the time spent with puppy buyers when they come to look at the pups @ 5, 6 ,7 ,8 weeks of age....

I don't think $1000 is unfair at all.

I would like to know what is the most anyone has paid to breed a litter of pups...I KNOW there have been litters where the breeder ended up paying more for the breeding than what they got from the buyers (emergencies, AI, etc)....plus if you have a guarantee and then have pups that 'fail' the guarantee you have to replace the pup or refund the money....(if you have a guarantee)..In the case of a guarantee it is in the breeder's best interest to try like HECK to make sure those pups have the best chance of being sound.

Juli

My first litter is due in 16-18 days. Cost today for Vet, Eyes, hips, 1 AI, 2 natural breedings at the Vet, the Stud fee, Fuel and Ultra Sound to get to this point in her pregnancy, is beginning to stretch $2000 +, and I am not done yet with costs. I Imagine $3000 + is realistic for my breeding, if all goes well. Vet predicts 6 pups. $1,000 per pup, barley pays back my time, effort and costs. However, I did not breed Sage to make $$.
Mark

Boy, I really hit a sensitive subject for my first day on this post and I was just reading this one because it was one of the first ones on the list. I really feel led to express my opinion on this topic.

What you are saying,Juli, makes complete sense, however, that's the risk you take if you decide to be a breeder and I do know a couple of breeders of dogs.

When I purchased my CB pup I understood the personal sacrifice of taking care, raising, and training our hunting dog. That was a personal choice I made. Breeders make that same choice.
From what I understand there is not much money to be made in breeding, but most individuals do it because they absolutely love the breed.

The point of my previous post was to express my feelings of the individuals that responded to "ptejhe's" breeding of her dam, not the price of her pups. Maybe that is the "ticker" that set some of you off. Why such a low price for a purebred pup? If she gave them away for free would that be even worse to you all?

I think there are some terrific CB breeders out there and I have full respect for all of them, however for individuals to condemn someone for breeding their dog that did not have the "official titles and numbers" and treat them as if they did something illegal is sad to read, in my opinion.

You probably know a lot more than I do about the CB breed, but it would have been nice to see some encouragement for "ptejhe" especially since there's a lot of worse things than improper breeding going on in this world right now.

Next time that you all read a post by someone who did something "improper" try being an encouragement for them and educate them with your knowledge of this breed.

Ptejhe if you are continuing to read these posts...good luck with finding terrific homes for your pups and I respect you for taking the time & energy as some of these breeders do to raise & help your dam with this litter. For someone that is not a breeder, but obviously loves the CB breed, you are a lot stronger than I am to take on this challenge. Good luck to you and God Bless!

$550 is probably average for this type of breeding (untitled parents)....I think, generally speaking (but not without exception) breeding a titled dam (SH, MH or QAA level) has 'earned' the breeder the right to charge more for pups....

In fact, I think anyone who breeds a titled bitch to a titled stud should be asking at least $1000 for a pup...of course this depends on the level of the title (and health clearances)......


for a an untitled or JH titled bitch bred to an FC, AFC, DC, MH (MNH ), QAA stud 900 - 1000....

for a pup from a highly titled bitch (MH QAA AFC, FC) bred to a QAA MH stud $1100-$1500...again depending on the breeding -

And for a big time breeding......
an FC or AFC bitch bred to an FC or AFC stud - if the breding was right..I would expect to pay $1500 - $2000......

there will never be the number of FC titled chessies as there are labs...and I think these dogs (and their genetics) are worth their weight in gold...esp if they are proven producers...Breeders of these dogs should be charging more for their pups, for just that reason.

SO back to the breeding in question....

perhaps the bitch was injured, perhaps she wasn't....Tina should have posted the fact that the bitch is severly displastic in the puppy advertisement...she could also have stated that she felt it was due to injury.....

honesty is the best policy.

And you are right...breeding these dogs is a labor of love for most breeders (but not all)...it is not for people wanting to make money, at least, not if they want to do it right.

Juli

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Juli,

Treva,

You said you had a great hunting dog right? How would you have felt if when your dog was about a year old it turned up lame? You take your dog to the vet and find your dog has hip displaysia. You go home devastated and tell your family and then call the breeder. Then the breeder says ”Oh yeah her mom had hip displaysia too”. I think then you may feel a little different about the situation.

Of course no dog is perfect but Hip Displaysia is an inherited condition. That is a fact. The reason it is not as prevalent as it once was is because people began to screen their dogs and stopped breeding dogs with bad hips. Of course the system has problems but it has worked thus far to drastically reduce the numbers of displaystic dogs. If we say okay to an occasional dog with bad hips we take a step backwards. Ptejhe’s dog has bad hips because somewhere along the line someone turned a blind eye. There are lines of dogs in other breeds that are HD free today because of responsible breeding.

If Ptejhe is honest with the puppy buyers then I have no problem with them breeding their dogs. I cannot judge them from a classified add. Overall I thought the reactions on this post were pretty civil. It is understandable to me though how the situation would raise some concern and hopefully it will get people thinking.

Adam

I want to respond to a couple of Treva's points that weren't addressed. First of all making puppies 'because we love our dog and she's our baby' is about as sorry as breeding a dog so kids can experience the miracle of birth (they should also be taken to a shelter to experience the mircle of death, but I digress). I wonder if Tina has ever held a dog that had to be PTS from something entirely preventable? MY guess is no or she would never have done this breeding.

Most of the people that visit this site are very serious about their dogs, whether they hunt, run HTs or FTs or whatever. Some people here, myself included, even foster rescue dogs cleaning up mistakes from irresponsible breedings like this one.THey understand and appreciate those that do take the time to train, campaign and title dogs and get appropriate health clearances on those that are bred. You notice that even the people with untitled dogs like to brag up their ancestors.

No one is saying untitled dogs shouldn't be bred nor that every breeding pair needs to be perfect in every way. What we are saying is if we are to overlook a genetic health problem there must be a strong overriding reason for that dog to remain in the gene pool. Performance or rare bloodlines are two that come to mind. Tina's bitch has NO performance record and she has decent but not rare bloodlines. In fact she has nothing to recommend her except "We love her and she's our baby". We don't even know if this bitch is sound or is already hobbling around in pain because by Tina's own admission the dog is clumsy and always hurting itself. Frankly I wonder how painful it must be for a severely dysplastic bitch to even whelp a litter--seems a cruel thing to do to a beloved family pet.

As for OFA mistakes, yes it's a subjective system and bad xrays can make decent hips look marginal. But you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. No xray in the world can make severely dysplastic hips look good. And as others have pointed out, our breed has made great strides in reducing the incidence of CHD by culling dysplastic dogs from the gene pool.

Bottom line, there are plenty of people that bought dogs with the full intention of breeding them, only to find out as the pup grew up it was not a viable breeding candidate for whatever reason--bad hips, hereditary eye problems, poor disposition, lack of work ethic...the reasons are many. It's disappointing but it's life and it's how you deal with it that speaks volumes about what you're in it for. If you are serious about improving the breed you suck it up, spay or neuter the dog, and start over again. If one was just a backyard breeder and in it for the money they breed the poor speciman.

One thing no one else has touched on is that it's the DOGS that suffer from irresponsible breeding like this. They end up in rescue or shelter or worse. Or their owners spend THOUSANDS on hip replacements and heartache.

As for what she's charging $550 is hideously expensive when you calculate what you might spend trying to keep your puppy from living a painful crippled existence. Compare for example to another litter by someone else new to breeding where they are selling the pups for $400 and both parents do have OFA numbers. And those dogs hunt!

Irresponsible back yard breedings are the reason most retriever sites forbid posting of ads without OFA and CERF numbers. Oh and Tina's dogs have no CERF # or PRA testing info. so for all we know they could have hereditary eye diseases and go blind from PRA in addition to a strong possibilty for dysplasia.

As I said before...shame on her.

Treva, Tina,

There are several problems with this breeding. The first is evident by Angel's OFA results. But these results should not be too suprising. Angel's Dam is Dustin's One Sniff Tif. Tif has an OFA score of good (CB-6028G36M) but it would appear that of her litter 4 dogs were submitted to OFA and only 2 received OFA numbers, indicating that the other two were probably dysplastic. Angel's sire has an excellent rating.

Second, Angel was bred to Gunner (who I believe to be Dustin's One Shot Smokin Gun?) Thankfully Gunner has an OFA number (CB-8733G36M) but Gunner's Dam does not have an OFA number. It also appears that Gunner's dam was out of a litter of 5 and none of the other dogs from this litter have an OFA number. Yet the OFA # for Gunner was not mentioned in the ad? In my opinion, the above data would put the risk of dysplasia for the pups of this litter fairly high.

Another troubling aspect is that there is neither CERF nor PRA-DNA results for either Gunner or Angel. However all of the grand dams and grand sires do have CERF numbers but I did not find any DNA results.

Angel's sire is the only titled dog and does have a MH. There does not appear to be any attempts made to compete or title any of the other dogs in this pedigree.

As was mentioned above, honesty and full disclosure are always the best policy. Mentioning that Gunner was OFA and Angel's sire was an OFA excellent and a MH might offset the OFA rating for Angel in some peoples mind. It would at least give any prspective puppy buyer a better idea as to the quality of pup they were looking at buying.

T. Mac