Following a long lay off at quite a critical age 1 yr - 18 months I have just got my youngster back into work.

She is a very "birdie" dog, but unfortunately in the UK we don't have the opportunity to train on birds in the same was as you appear to in the US. Whilst she is obedient and will retrieve I am finding her flat on bunper work. She hasn't got the oomph I want. This flatness is normally when she is learning new stuff. Once she is sure, she is ok. however, it slows down progress, as I don't want to flatten her completely. I've ended up doing 10 minutes a day and only a few retrieves, but the progress this way is painfully slow. I am wondering, as she is such a very steady dog whether to make it all very exciting again and basically un-steady her. Let her break and get her going faster again.

I did this, this afternoon - sending her when bumpers were in the air. It undoes some work, for sure, but I'm fairly sure I can steady her again at a later day. I feel I'd rather be dealing with a breaking issue than an un-enthusiastic dog. Without a doubt, she was much faster and more enthusiastic doing this. Also, training her with other dogs sharpens her up.

Does anyone disagree? and why?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jacky simpson,

While I have always preferred breaking to "no-goes" I don't usually encourage it.
From my very limited knowledge of UK competition I believe steadiness is a big factor.
As opposed to allowing sending her early why not throw bumpers that are VERY APPEALING (ie high arcing, short throws, multiple shots, throwing again while in route.....). This may help with both attitude and staunchness.

JMO

Tim

8.6 bazillion pigeon fanciers in the UK and you can't get your hands on a few?

I started keeping homing pigeons to train my pointing dogs, the last of which is now 12, but I'll maintain a loft as long as I've a gun dog of any sort. Doesn't take much space, time or trouble and is handy as pockets.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rick Hall:
8.6 bazillion pigeon fanciers in the UK and you can't get your hands on a few?

Shooting season now so there will be a whole pile of birds around. This doesn't alter fact that she needs to be able to do bumper work too as only our trials ( only during the shooting season ) are done with game. 8 months of the year are on bumpers.

Do you think you might be exaggerating about the amount of pigeon fanciers in my midst.

"Sit means sit" sooo....

Birds, birds and more birds. Dead ones, live ones. Whatever is available.

Honoring drills and shoot some flyers off the line. Make her honor while other dogs are working.

Put her on a tie out stake and let her watch other dogs work-retrieving both birds and bumpers.

Use 12 gauge popper loads when you throw her marks both with bumpers and dead birds, especially on the longer marks.

Mix bumpers and birds on your marks.

Tie some bird wings on your bumpers.

I have always had a freezer devoted just for keeping dead birds frozen and get the most out of all them before discarding.

Anyway, for starters.

Good luck!

Keith

Thanks for that Keith and you've made me think of something. Because of her injury I wasn't going to take her hunting this year, but maybe I should occassionally and just make her watch.

quote:

Originally posted by jacky simpson:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rick Hall:
8.6 bazillion pigeon fanciers in the UK and you can't get your hands on a few?

Shooting season now so there will be a whole pile of birds around. This doesn't alter fact that she needs to be able to do bumper work too as only our trials ( only during the shooting season ) are done with game. 8 months of the year are on bumpers.

Do you think you might be exaggerating about the amount of pigeon fanciers in my midst.

OK, so I might be off a smidge on the exact number of pigeon keepers in the UK, but my Internet impression is that pigeon racing is quite popular there. Certainly have by far the best forum I've found.

In any event, I'd want to replace the bad habit your girl's developing with something besides a breaking habit that will also need dealt with. And birds are a positive way to light a fire in a dog.

Should you find her still lacking enthusiam for bumpers once you've got her in the habit of working hard for birds, you can deal with that through denial of anything but bumpers or the jealousy of seeing other dogs have all the fun.

Or you can try denial or jealousy first. Lots of ways to train a dog, but I'd just as soon not replace one problem with another.

Yes, I catch the drift about replacing one problem with another.

I worked her on some partridge this morning and that woke her right up. Then, of course she didn't want to pick a bumper afterwards.

Absolutely no-one does F/F in the UK. I am really tempted as (at last) I understand it's huge benefits. The problem is that I have simply no-one around to help me and I'm not entirely sure its "safe" to try something that is so radically diffent to everything I've ever been taught with a book or a video.

I'm not worried I won't get this girl sorted out. I have been doing gundogs for years. I'm just getting more and more open to the way you guys do stuff and everytime I am coming up against a hurdle I'm coming up with a solution that comes from your system.

I think people who keep pigeons live "up North"

quote:

I think people who keep pigeons live "up North"

Is that my cue, Jacky? As it 'appens, many's the day, on my way to work, I pass a group of men (complete with flat caps and whippets) on a roadside standing beside their whicker baskets of pigeons. Nowt wrong with pigeons ... but they wouldn't let me use them for training my dog ... would you, Des?
Sue

Hi Sue & Jacky,
Des here under Mary's logon, I have both racing pigeons & gundogs but my dogs do not get near my pigeons, they race up to 400 miles plus across England from France to me here in Ireland crossing two seas on the way. However in saying that many pigeon fanciers with large numbers do a cull (I only have a small loft of birds) and would be more than willing to 'donate' birds to you Jacky. They are not only 'up north' but spread throughout the UK and you should be able to find a local club on www.rpra.org whom you could contact to source birds. Don't forget also that the UK has an abundance of woodpigeon and I'm sure someone you know through the shoots you pick up on would oblige you by shooting a few woodies for you.
Des

Birds a plenty at this time of the year, and no disrespect intended to either Northerners of pigeon fanciers!!!

Been training this week with a "running rabbit". A bumper tied to a long bungie rope. Now generally the idea is that the dog isn't distracted by the very obvious diversion, but in Mara's case it has suddenly made the bumper INTERESTING, beyond measure. So, the opposite to the normal reasons for using RR - I'm using it to wind her on bumpers.

Lots and lots of long marks, an no blinds - just for the time being and she is going heaps better again.

10 days on and things have improved loads. I realise that I have jammed her up by doing only short work and blinds while her leg was on the mend. What she has needed is some real chances to open the throttle and stretch herself again. Good long marks into long grass where I let her just hunt without my input has really speeded her up and enthused her and she goes back for a memory with as much enthusiasm. From now I can begin to re-introduce some direction stuff without real drill work - just for the time being.

Nothing like getting "back in shape" again and feeling good physically and I am sure these canine atheletes are affected the same way as we humans.

Good news Jacky!

Keith

I am late on this, but wanted to offer a couple of alternatives to letting her break. Yes, it is exciting for her to go when the dummy is in the air, but the excitement remains strong up to the point when it hits the ground. Over here in the U.S. we pay a lot of attention to building a dog's enthusiasm, and one tactic we use is to send just as the dummy hits the ground. Depending on the dog, you could delay a fraction of a second, letting anticipation build. This keeps the dog waiting for your cue, so you don't have as much to re-train later.

If that is not enough, I think you get more from restraining a dog than from letting her break. If you hold her back, you relieve her of responsibility for steadiness. This helps build focus on the retrieve, and the restraint seems to really help build desire. Again I would send promptly when the dummy hits the ground.

I don't think I really explained that. There is something about being restrained, wanting to go but being held back, that really seems to build enthusiasm. I think I have enough experience to say it's more effective than allowing a dog to break.

Amy Dahl

quote:

Originally posted by Keith Carlson:
"Sit means sit" sooo....

Birds, birds and more birds. Dead ones, live ones. Whatever is available.

Honoring drills and shoot some flyers off the line. Make her honor while other dogs are working.

Put her on a tie out stake and let her watch other dogs work-retrieving both birds and bumpers.

Use 12 gauge popper loads when you throw her marks both with bumpers and dead birds, especially on the longer marks.

Mix bumpers and birds on your marks.

Tie some bird wings on your bumpers.

I have always had a freezer devoted just for keeping dead birds frozen and get the most out of all them before discarding.

Anyway, for starters.

Good luck!

Keith

I agree Keith 100%

quote:

Originally posted by Amy Dahl:


There is something about being restrained, wanting to go but being held back, that really seems to build enthusiasm. I think I have enough experience to say it's more effective than allowing a dog to break.

Amy Dahl

Very True!! It may sound like a contradiction but steadying builds excitment and anticipation.
As the mark hits the ground heel the dog forward 1-2 steps, then send. This works equally well for slowing down the breaker as it does increasing the desire of the unfocused.

Tim

Thanks Amy. I had realised over the last couple of weeks that letting her go the minute the dummy hit the ground was better than when it was in the air, and she is out hunting with me a bit now and she is always restrained on birds and watching other dogs working. When I let her off she is like dynamite on a bird. Infact she is almost too hot to take out on shoots where we are getting 150 birds off one drive. I take her out for 1 drive and then put her away for the rest of the day.

When I'm training on dummies I have noticed an enormous difference between training her on her own or with other dogs, and so I always take another dog out training with me.

Also, I have just replied to Amy's thread on blind work and not lining youngsters. She's not a baby now, but she did have so much time off we are quite behind.Amy has given me the confidence to do what I was intuitively feeling was right, but being encouraged not to do, and that is let her make distance on blind work rather than getting anal about lines, as this was taking the wind out of her sails too.

It's not easy for me to do a lot of formal training during the shooting season as I'm busy working with the other dogs, but she is making good progress on shorter sessions and just getting a couple of birds out on shoot days.