Hello Everyone,


My name is Paul MacKinnon and I run Atlantic Flyway Gundogs in Prince Edward Island, Canada.


I have been reading with interest all the posts...especially about Butch's CD and the arguemnts between trails and gundogs?

I have two of Butch's dogs..SR Northern Flights Grand Slam Homer SH ( 5yrs) and Northern Flights Island Castaway JH...I also have a puppy coming from Butch this summer as I am establishing the beginings of my breeding training program.

I agree with Bruce on a couple of the fact that it is two totally Different things...gundogs and trials.....there is definitely some dogs out there that hunt in the off season and Bruce I think that that speaks even more of Decks that he does both successfully....I remember in 1997 when I first met Butch He spoke of Decks and told me to keep an eye on this dog....I guess he was right. I make a point of helping our club at trials and there are very few dogs that...in my opinion can make the transition to successful gundog...just what I Have seen...but that should not be a bad thing..if you chose to run your chessie in trials and not hunt that is great...that is your choice...why should it matter if Butch is a successful gundog trainer/columnist and more importantly a breeder.

When you have dogs like Clipper and Decks that do both it is nothing but great for the breed...it is isn't a east coast/west coast thing...that is bullshit...it is about the great breed we have and the solid base we have to pick from in the breed...both my dogs have all the lineage of the greats like the Decks, Cliipers, Boo, Gittum etc....Isn't it great that our dogs can be successful at trials or retriving 500-600 birds a year for me and tons of other people.

I think there is a mentality out there of us against them...is that in the best interest of the breed...I think not? Some people have said on this site that Who is Butch Goodwin? That person needs to have a look in the mirror and look beyond trials and titles and see what is happening in the breed as a whole.....you will not find a better breeding program in the nation..period for the breed,,,not just trials or gundogs..for the breed!

We should celebrate that people like Bruce, Linda, Butch, Dr.Lundy and this site does for the breed and this great dog...not saying who is right or wrong....there is more then one way to skin a cat?

p.s. can you train a dog the " Amish Way ". I think you can. Somebody asked Talbot about chessies running up here...I have run some 22 hunt test with my dogs and have yet to fail a test...there is also a another chessie some 10 yrs ago that went 16 straight hunt test to be a grand master.....With any luck my Homer will finish up his MH this summer.I ma not sure if any dogs have achieved this...the second mentioned was the son of my old male.Not bad I guess but the Amish are known for there work ethic, craftmanship etc....A little eccentric but Quality...Thanks

Paul MacKinno

Paul,

I'm glad for people like Butch and read his articles when I can. Does he have any dogs in field trial homes?
I find it very surprising that you haven't seen many field trial dogs that can make the transition to gundog. I think that is what you wrote..? What do you mean by that?

Scott

I am not sure if any have gone to feild trial homes or not.....I think is focus is to service the gundog community and people that there main focus is hunting both waterfowl and upland. I believe that any of his dogs would be capable of running FT's if someone chose that route.

When I said that it only by my experience out here in the maritimes....I have never seen a chessie in a FT to be honest. I believe you would be much more likely to have a Field/FT dog with our breed.I have only seen labs and I know 15-20 people quite well and they refuse to hunt there dogs...they say they cannot do both and be successful in the FT game....also I hunt with some of these people and it just seems to be the natural instincts are lacking. I amnot saying it does not happen but I would like to know when people say hunt do they hunt.....probably these people and dogs would be in the minority...That's out here and we have a very short season.....FT/hunt tests go from late may until late August...plus you have to train in that time frame. That's all!

Paul

Hey Paul,

Everyone is RIGHT--no one is wrong!!

You obviously understood the "spirit" of my other post--life's too short to sweat the small stuff!!! We should all be striving, together, working as a cohesive unit, to continuously improve on the "chesapeake retrieving machines"!!!

Personally, during the trial season we[that's our PACK] train and trial; during hunting season we hunt,eat,and sleep[working as little as possible!]. May not sound like much to some, but it keeps me happy . . . oh, the dogs are plenty satisfied too!!!

Sounds like Butch has carved-out quite a niche!! Life is good!

All the best to you in your K - 9 endeavors!!

Sincerely

Bruce

Hello Bruce,

I think that it is great that you spend the fall hunting....I pretty much do the same up here in the North.

Butch has told me many great things about yourself and Decks...who happens to be the grand-father to my female......Since I am in the process of starting my breeding/training kennel Butch highly reccomended keeping an eye on your dogs and/or any off spring of Decks.It is great to see that in this day and age and where the level of difficulty of FT's as evolved that there is some browndogs able to be successful at both....it can ony be good for the breed.

We are a month away from training and another 6-8 weeks away from water work...so trout fishing is coming soon. Take care Bruce.


Pau

Hey Paul,

In equine circles, breeders refer a phenomenon they call "the Maternal Grand-sire Affect". It follows that a 1st generation mare of a great competitor may not be a great competitor, but that, mare bred to another stud, can /often does, pass-on the outstanding characteristics[of her awesome sire] to her progeny. So, these talented animals, possess the traits/characteristics, not necessarily of their sire, but of their mother's sire--their "maternal grandsire".

Where am I going with this, you ask? Well, I only saw pictures of Decks' sire, CH Gambler***MH ****; but I did have the honor of witnessing his "maternal grandsire", Dual/AFC Clipper MH **** in action, winning an Amateur @ 12yrs. of age! Gambler, I'm told was a substantial male,90+#; Clipper was approx. 75-80#. Decks resembles his "maternal grandsire" in appearance, demeanor, more obviously, talent/aptitude--level of desire/intensity, marking ability[both land AND WATER], and most importantly, "WATER PROWESS".

This "water prowess"[exceptional valor, bravery,or ability, esp. in combat or battle!] I'm convinced, is what separates the "competitors[in any arena] from the wanttabes". I witnessed it in Clipper and in Decks. More importantly, I have seen/see this trait in his sons, grandsons, and great-grandsons. As this "Great Old Man" lays at my feet, he doesn't know all that he has accomplished in his much-too-short visit here with us. . . . well better go before I get all misty

Hey Bruce,

That is really making me think....I am in the beginning stages of starting my kennel and breeding program. Butch and I have been speaking about my direction,which dogs I should consider looking at etc........ Obviously the Decks and Clipper line is at the top of the list we concluded.

Now after reading your email and not seeing my young females pedigree in 4 months as it is storage because I am building a new house, I do know from a conversation yesterday that she is strongly lined with Decks and Clipper on both sides. Decks is her grand father on one side and Clipper is on the other side...My male also has both along with Butch's great male Boo along with his awesome female Gittum.....Is she a litter mate to Decks?...anyway if you look at Butch's line he has worked tirelessy to keep all the best of these greats in his program.

So, I guess what I am saying is based on your last email and what my young female has showed me training ,hunting and that "SOMETHING" special that I am starting on a good note?

Pau

Hey Paul,

I don't believe Gittum to be a littermate to Decks. Gambler was 12 when he sired Decks' litter-2 males, two females. They did not have the opportunity to be trialed. One of the bitches was unfortunately killed by a car and the other was spayed--ouch!

Not sure whether I understand the other question[donb't want to misinterpret something]. Got to go to the Con-man's soccer game!

Later

Bruce

Just to clarify.

Gettum is a Clipper daughter, Clipper x Rivermaster Molly Ann (Whelped 6/24/93). Decks is a Clipper grandson, CAROWAY'S GAMBLER x CLIPPERS DILWYN MINK (whelped 10/9/92).

Per AKC's web site, Gettum's highest title is a JH, with 4 points toward a breed championship.

Both Clipper and Decks are Ch, FC, AFC, MH titled dogs.

Known littermates to Gettum include: NORTHERN FLIGHT'S MEGA DITTO and DAKOTA CITY KADY DEE. No known titles on these 2 dogs.

Note CH CLIPPER'S FROZEN ASSETS is of the same breeding (later litter) and obviously AI from stored semen. Freezer has 2 legs towards his MH in addition to his Ch.

TM.

Thanks,

But I am not so sure that Clipper and Decks have there FC....I am almost sure thay both do not have that title...I am sure of Clipper...I think?

Just wanted to let you know, they both do have their FC.
Jim

Paul,

If you are really thinking of breeding, please study the history and pedigrees of the GREATS of the breed. If you need a place to start, you can check some of the stuff on my website www.tulemist.com. You might also get a copy of the breed book that is offered for sale on the ACC web site. Another good book is Eloise Cherry's earlier book on the breed. You can sometimes find this advertised on E-bay. As a bare beginning, you should at least know who the dual champions are in the breed. This includes both Decks and Clipper as well as the following list of dogs:

1 Sodak's Gypsy Prince
2 Mount Joy's Mallard
3 Baron's Tule Tiger
4 Meg's O'Timothy
5 Koolwater Colt Of Tricrown
6 Tiger's Cub
7 Cub's Kobi King
8 Fireweed's Jasmine
9 JJ's Jessie
10 Coot's Gypsy Clipper
11 JJ's Chi-Town Blizzard
12 Gambler's Dilwyn-Stacked Deck
13 Westwind's Rudy OF Nordais

And in case you aren't familiar with the term dual champion, it is that dog who has earned both its CH and its FC. These (and in my book only these dogs) are the GREATS of our breed, By admitting that you don't even know who the duals are in the breed merely admits your ignorance in developing a breeding program. The dual is one of the things that sets the Chessie apart from any other retriever breed. The only living DC retrievers over the last several years are Chessies. The Labs and Goldens have not had a dual in many, many years (decades). The dual is what most responsible Chessie breeders dream of producing. While Lab folk count FCs or NFCs in their pedigree, Chessie breeders brag on the number of DCs. For a good example, when you visit my website, please look up the pedigree of my pup out of one of Linda Patterson's latest breedings: SR02806603 JJ's Tigress of the TuleMist, and count the number of DCs in her past 5 generations. (I'll give you a hint, its more than 10!) Look up the pedigree of Tiger and count the DCs in his pedigree. Look up th pedigrees of any of the GREATS in the breed and compare their pedigrees with the pedigrees of the dogs in your breeding program. And please do not respond that these dogs are not hunted. Most every field titled Chessie also hunts. I know Bruce has hunted Decks extensively. I have had the pleasure of hunting over Dex. And just try to keep the Pattersons from hunting over their dogs.

Titles and competiton are the only way of objectively measuring a dog's ability. Generally these evalutions are done by a neutral party, the judges overseeing the event. A MH titled dog as sire is about the minimal acceptable level for many field people. And most will demand an FC or AFC titled dog. The reason being that in the MH dog (as an example), the dog and handler have demonstrated the dog's abilities to the satisfaction of judges, a minimum of 5 times. And note the criteria for the MH is far below that required to obtain the FC or AFC title. A FC or AFC dog has demonstrated their abilities enough to win (at least) one trial over many other dogs and place in several other trials. In my book, these are the good (field) dogs in the breed. But the GREATS remain the DCs.

Bruce, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Decks has been invited to more Nationals than any other Chessie? And being invited to a national is no small feat. One that many field trialers only dream about.

TM.

[This message was edited by Tom M on Sun March 07 2004 at 09:38 PM.]

Hey Tom,

Thanks for the info and I have checked out your website which is very well done.I also have the book by Eloise...I have had it for years and I got it when I got my first chessie 20 years ago.

I want to clarify something from your last post. I never said that I never knew who were the Duals in the breed were but thanks for the list. I said that I was unaware that Decks and Clipper were FC's.Now because I really do not follow the trial game that much from a rules type perspective all the info I have read and/or own says Decks and Clipper are Dual AFC...so does that mean that they have all the titles you mentioed earlier...Dual,FC, AFC and MH...Because I am not sure Tom as to how a dog is titled does not make me ignorant to the breed or as a breeder.....I am well aware of who and what dogs to watch and which dogs I would want in my lines.

Also I have never said anything about chessies that hunt and trial...I have spoke back and forth to Steve and Bruce saying how I think it is great that our breed is able to do that...I stated that my experience up here in canada is that the labs do not do both for the most part....if the greats in our breed right now are doing it I think that is awesome...for the tenth time.

And finally my game is hunting birds first and foremost....I run tests up here and my dogs are master/qualifying level; dogs that will retrieve 1000's of birds in there lifetime...that's my passion and "my game". Why does this have to be a problem with everyone. If I have the same breeding as you Tom but decide to play my game and trial your dogs is your dog automatically better....I think not...it might be better at more advanced training but if I chose to that my dog could do it also......if I chose to shoot 1000's of wild birds over the course of my dogs lifetime who will be a better gundog...I am betting my dog would......we both would have great dogs, from great gentics...yours might have an FC or AFc nad mine might be a MH or GMH. Are you saying because your dog runs trails that yours would be better to breed to? I think your wrong there....by a long shot. There more too the big picture then titles.....a very small portion of people are trialing there chessies...they are shooting birds over them......but because we have a great breed that can trial, hunt etc....we are in good shape overall. The vast majority of people want a dog to hunt with,retrieve there birds,find cripples, flush pheasants etc......It is not a right or wrong issue..like I have already said....it seems everytime somebody wants to say something that does not ring true people like you are ready to jump all over them with your opinions and questioning there ignorance when it comes to the breed. That is the type of attitude that will harm the breed and alinate people further from participating in this type of forum. RELAX.

Hey Tom,

Decks was the "lucky number 13th Dual"-running from number 13, at a trial that started on Friday the 13th!!!!!

I think that you missed Dual Capital City Jake-Cappy.

Bruce