This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kent Stokesberry,

Don't use ducks or scented bumpers when specifically working on casting into wind. If hes winding the duck hes only learning to hunt on your cast instead of actually handling. Reward with ducks on downwind casts. Use visible cues such as your cone or marker you used when you forced to pile so the dog sees the destination upon getting close which gets speed and confidence up when he's out and away from you.

I gradually took away visible blind markers when Kaie was handling better and have pretty much discarded them in entirety until lately because I have a confidence issue and I'm trying to get her moving better again.

But, what works for me one day doesn't work the next day with my moody little lady....

Now this is a real topic

Rule of thumb when running blinds on a cross wind or into the wind - Dog doesn't take cast stop immediately.

I don't like the part where you say," trying to develop better dog performance." Change your ways don't be reactive to dog when running blind be proactive. You are there to help dog. The most important thing is he taking the cast? Experience and confidence will cause a dog to hold the line.

A good thing to do is false line your dog and after 150/200 yards cast to the blind. It's usually at the end of a blind that gets you dropped.

I wish I could convert you to the handlers triangle. This is the way to do blinds. If you have a fax number I will fax you the handlers triangle from the Rorem Seminar.

Basically the blind is a point, you are a point and the dog is a point. The blind stays constant as the dog progresses to the blind you move to keep the triangle skinny. By keeping the triangle skinny your cast won't be drastic. I know it is hard to understand without seeing it.

Thanks for a real topic instead of the other Bullshit.

You got it Brudda!

Oh yeah I like to use white bumpers on blinds when training. Dog needs a reward at the end. WHen they see the white builds their confidence and momentum.

Should we worry about rear, ears, nose or what's between the ears.

Where are the intellects???

What I can't believe is how no one is on this topic. All the experts should be here discussing this. Into the wind is a major topic when handling a dog.

Hell I was in and open third series water blind. fought the wind in the water as soon as he exited I stopped him and casted him with the wind and it was over for me. Just about 20 ft from the blind and he took off all over the place. He was looking great until casting with the wind. Handler screw up.

I like to go back to pattern blinds on days with high winds in my face and remote cast to each blind (2-300 yard backs and overs). I do the same on water picking days when there is almost white caps on the pond.
Rough weather can be an opportunity!

Tim

Holding a line on land in a cross wind is just like teaching a dog to hold a hill, it requires the dogs eyes to stay focused on the destination and the body then follows. Cross winds on water requires the dog to adjust its body movement to compensate so to not be blown to shore or out to sea.
The dog will need to be de-cheated and confident in swim-by to learn how to control where their body goes in a cross wind.
JMO
Tim

Man, Bear would of placed in the top three at the CMRC imformal qual this weekend if we could of got a good into the wind cast. I kept him up wind till the last fifteen yards and gave an angle back to the down wind side and he took an over with the wind and then slipped a whistle ended up 40yds downwind before I got him stopped, then I got an over cast refusal into the wind, stopped him again and tried an angle back into the wind, he took a straight back and his nose bailed him out. Ended up with a RJ, up to that point he ran a very nice trial, I was pretty happy. So we will be working on long distance casting into the wind , that blind was 280yds and there was about a 20mph wind.

Craig you should try false lining. Thats where the last cast is impotant. Don't worry dog doesn't know you are lying to him.

Mike, I did false line him slightly up wind and he took a very good innitial line (about 200yds). Is that what your talking about? Were I think I did mess up was I was a little slow on my whistle when he took that over instead of an angle back I think I was hoping he would wind it, I know bad move , I was sleeping a little, I was still on cloud nine because he just smoked a big indented triple .

Part of the reason I don't think he took that angle back cast was due to the fact that the blind was placed right on the edge of a woods and I don't think he wanted to go into the woods. To get down wind of the bird the dogs had to be a yard or two into the woods. Over half the dogs got lost in the woods for a while. The wind switched a little which made a tough blind even harder.

The big question is how do you handle cast refusals??

Use attrition first!!!!!!!
Then correct with the collar if you get refusals.

I would practice these concepts on school blinds.

That way, it is clear to the dog!!

Under cast with the wind!
Over cast against it

Here is my two cents for what it is worth.

Two important things to remember. A wet dog will always fade more with the wind than a dry one. After many discussions of why this happens we have never really figured out a reason other that they are dogs and thats what they do.

The second thing and I feel it is important one that holds people back in their training is don't look at a blind in traing like you would at a trial. What I mean is that in a trial you have a window you must stay within to "challenge the blind". Too far out of the window, have a safe drive home, enjoy the rest of your weekend. In training we are looking to see them carry cast and maintain momentum.

With that in mind you must be willing to change your game plan at any point to emphasize what you are asking of them no matter how far off the line to the blind this takes them. For example set up a blind running cross wind (wind left to right) dog starts to fade to the right with the wind a hundred yards out, toot, left angle back. Dog takes the cast and dramatically scallops back to the right, toot left angle back (this is the free one), dog scallops again. Hard whistle, dog stops, toot-toot-toot back to the point of the last cast, hard whistle-nick-toot give the cast again. Same result bring him back again hard whistle-burn-toot give it again. Chance are you are going to get a nice big cast right into the wind. Here is where a lot of people make a critical mistake. The dog has just showed you that they now understand that you want them to drive into the wind. But their line maybe taking them off into no mans land as far as the "true line to the blind goes". In a trial your reaction would be to stop them and cast back to the right to get back on line. In traing throw that line out the window. Let them carry that cast as long as you have room. I don't care if they are a hundred yards off line if they are still carrying and driving let them roll. Once they are back even with the pin. stop, right hand over. They danger with stopping them as soon as they get a little wide is that you are now giving them permission to do the thing you just beat into their head not to do. The same concept work for hillsides or any other factor you are trying to teach. Stick with this philosophy and you will not only end up with a dog that takes much better true cast but also a blind running dog that is smooth and pleasant to watch.

Sorry for the length of the post but I think this is very important. I have seen people that have switched to this method of training on blinds as opposed to staying so tight and within weeks their dogs had made drastic improvements.

Re reading my post I also wanted to include that is is important in setting up a blind and marks for that matter for training that you don't have contradicting factors. For example a hill that pushes them to the left and a wind pushing them to the right. You never want to end up in a situation where as a handler you aren't sure if the dog is fighting hard against one factor or just falling to another. Also when you start to handle you want your message to be clear so that you aren't telling them to fight the hill while at the same time giving them permission to fade with the wind.

Nice post Jimmy the Mick, I can see how that could really help. How would you feel about planting a second blind 50 sum yards up wind and a little longer. If they hold a good line send them for the original if they don't handle them into the wind to the second.

Jimmy great post. I forgot what Scott taught me at his private seminar. Thanks for reminding me. I'm a nucklehead.

quote:

How would you feel about planting a second blind 50 sum yards up wind and a little longer. If they hold a good line send them for the original if they don't handle them into the wind to the second.

There isn't really a need to plant the second bird. It isn't important if your casts have the dog taking all sorts of wierd lines over the field. It is just important that they take the cast. Just remember to keep your game plan loose, you never know what problems they are going to have along the way. Sometimes we set up blinds expecting the dog to have problems with the obvious factor and they suprise us by screwing up somethign we never saw or never thought would be an issue. Thats when the plan changes and you throw out your original line and make them fight whatever factor they are avoiding