How important to you is a good initial line? How far do you think a good initial line should be? Is this distance different for hunt tests and trials?

What things do you do to help a dog learn take a good initial line?

without stating the obvious and most used drill, the wagon wheel... any others?

Last winter I had 5 pattern blinds ranging from 75-120 yds, they were pretty tight to each other (less than 30-40 yds apart)..It was sometimes challenging for Hitch, for sure, but I found that it really did help him.....It also really improved his working with me at the line, and my reading him and lining him up correctly as well....

Juli

excellent articles and advise. This is why I like this site.

Russell

I had a nice conversation with John Gunn on Saturday at the local trial regarding teaching proper lines. I don't have time to re-cap a lot but, he uses bleach bottles on a stick. Gunner throws all marks to the bottle which gives the dogs a focus point and teaches them not to swing from the mark. He'll start off close to the bottle, back up on the same line, running from a further point away. John rarely runs multiples after he has determined the dogs can count.

quote:

Originally posted by Juli Hermanns:
How important to you is a good initial line? How far do you think a good initial line should be? Is this distance different for hunt tests and trials?

What things do you do to help a dog learn take a good initial line?

Juli

1)Very important.
2)From the first inch to about 20 yds
3)No difference. But at a HT you might be half the way to the bird!
4)Precision heeling. Your dog should be able to heel in a tight circle with you only pivoting heel to toe(0*-10*) both clockwise and counter clockwise and 1-6 inches forward or backwards without the dog's butt leaving the ground. The dog that needs to stand for every spine adjustment only gets it right by accident.

Once you get the spine right then you can work on the head, then the eyes and finally the brain.

JMO

Tim

Great answers Tim......I also agree teaching goodlines, working togther and having your pup be your shadow is all very important in my opinion.

Wagon wheels and all lining drills,push/pull etc.......need to be awesome!

I also during this time have several site/permnament blinds set up to build confidence and momentum and help them run where they are pointed with confidence!

Just my two cents from someone who misses training terribly and wishes I had more time!

You should have watched Bruce Mitchell lining Hummer with the click of his finger - precision lining.

now that I would like to see!

There was a drill that Rex Carr made all of handlers do: No hands heeling.

The handler had to put their hands in their pockets and heel in a circle, take small steps backward and forward.

The idea being to have the dog move according to your knee.
Tim

Tim,

Is there a video on the market showing the "No hands Heeling"?

Sounds like competitive obedience? Not joking ... if you want to see a video, maybe watch some competitive obedience heelwork? Me and my dog would benefit from that!

I use my one whistle one cast drill more than any other, as you increase your distance from the piles the dog's body movement becomes less and less and the initial line can be effected by the dog just shifting a foot or their body slightly. An initial line can decide weather you do the blind or fail it.

Marty

Malcom I think they show a little of it in the old Car / Rorem tapes if I remember right. If you haven't seen them they are worth watching. Better make a pot of coffee though because its long.......Intresting stuff though..

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Gilmore:
I don't have time to re-cap a lot but, he uses bleach bottles on a stick. Gunner throws all marks to the bottle which gives the dogs a focus point and teaches them not to swing from the mark. He'll start off close to the bottle, back up on the same line, running from a further point away.

Just curious, Paul ... what happens when you take the bleach bottles away? Is it not teaching the dog to run to a bottle on a stick? At what stage do you remove the bottles?
Sue

Search the subject on the web version of ONLINE. I bet you will come up with lots of info. Teaching the dog to run the line to a manicon with the dog not having actually seeing a mark thrown fall. Utilizing different ques and body movement to communicate which side of the manicon the bumber/bird is located. It's all about the communication between dog and handler. John Gunn is obviously very sucessful with it!

I would encourage all of you that get a chance to talk with John Gunn to do so. He is very dog savy and has many ideas that are out of the box.
I was training one time after a field trial and the only one around was John and his wife. They were teaching the open blind they had run the day before. First he took his three dogs to the bird placement spot, planted several birds. He then walked around the pond and called the dogs to him. He then sent one at a time to retrieve a bird from the pile. Then after they had all done that , Placed the birds back in the dogs mouth and sat them. He went back further until the next water entry and again called the dogs and repeated to the pile. Went around that water and repeated again. then back further thru some tall grass to the start of the blind and repeated again. When that was done Janice sat in a chair along the line and thru a diversion bird and again he ran the blind.
So armed with that I went back the next day and did the same with a couple of my dogs and boy did it work. Have since learned that this is called Back Trailing but had never heard of it before he told me. and it is called TEACHING.
John said that he rairly runs a cold blind but teachs using this method so I thought if it works so well on blinds why not try it on difficult marks and that is also very effective. It also help on line running as the line is always clear to them.
Clay

I like to use back trailing for blinds....It is a great technique for building confidence....

Today I ran Marty's one whistle one cast drill with Hitch...He did a very nice job....I am learning too, to pay attn to me, and what I am doing....I want to be better as a dog handler...maybe I should have someone video tape me and then I can post for 'critique'...

(except it would take like an hour for me to upload the video...LOL) I do wish I had someone here to tell me what I am doing wrong and right...

Juli

PS - when in retriever history did 'handling' become teaching dogs to take a 'line' vs. teaching dogs to take directions?

Juli

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Lockard:
Search the subject on the web version of ONLINE. I bet you will come up with lots of info. Teaching the dog to run the line to a manicon with the dog not having actually seeing a mark thrown fall. Utilizing different ques and body movement to communicate which side of the manicon the bumber/bird is located. It's all about the communication between dog and handler. John Gunn is obviously very sucessful with it!

Tim, any chance you could give us some key words to google? Am not sure what I'm looking for!

Juli, know just what you mean. It's tricky when you mostly train on your own - I'm often not sure whether I'm doing the right thing, or what to do next.
Sue

I think he means http://www.retrieversonline.com/index.htm

It's on line but they put out a magazine which is my bible when it comes to drills and aet ups.

quote:

Originally posted by Juli Hermanns:
when in retriever history did 'handling' become teaching dogs to take a 'line' vs. teaching dogs to take directions?

Juli

The line is the direction. It is the first cast.

Handling has been a part of blinds from the beginning. In the beginning blinds were short and all you had to do is to get the dog to leave your side and handle from there. As times progressed and competition got better the dog that "took off" straighter won more often. Handlers really did not get into real lining for marks and blinds until the 1960's. Prior to that it was not uncommon for dogs to deliver and be sent for memory birds from outside a blind while the handler was in the blind or when blinds were not used it was not uncommon to snatch a bird from a dog and send for the next without heeling or even sitting the dog. Again as dogs got better test got harder and the winners were those that went straight(lined).

Tim

Lines are now becoming everything in the UK too. We have been behind you.

If you can't get a dog out to where you want it to be in the first place all the handling and direction work in the world isn't going to save you. The dogs that get the top marks are the one's that take the line and get to where you want them to be in one shot. However, where English trials are run on an ordinary shoot day and birds go where the birds just happen to go, we don't always know exactly where the bird might be, especially if it is "walking wounded". Therefore the ability to still hunt and handle are paramount. A good dog is a balance of line out and handle on, when required. In addition there are times when the fall might even be completely out of site of the handler and so a dog also needs to be capable of self employment on the occassions when the handler isn't in a position to be of assistance.