Do you find that your dogs steadily improve through training, or rather that they learn a single concept suddenly, and then go through a lull where they don't learn as quickly?

Also, I was advised by a trainer to "train slow dogs fast, and fast dogs slow" meaning keep everything fast-paced and exciting for a more lethargic/low-drive dog, and keep things slow and controlled for a hyper/high-drive dog.

Anybody use any techniques along these lines?

The puppy work that I did was geared towards building and maintaining desire...now I am wanting to gear it back a little so I can have more control. My current program involves a very slow walk to the line, with numerous stops, and then a "sit" command after our number is called (only on marks where I feel that too much drive is a bad thing...if there is an opportunity to cheat I will not use the sit, as I want him pumped up to forget about obstructions), then a send command.

I suppose ultimately what I am shooting for is a better way to figure out what my dog is thinking, and how to use that to my advantage. Both in the area of learning and testing/trialing.

Todd

The slow for fast and fast for slow usually applys more to how you control/handle the dog rather then the rate at which you teach concepts.
A dog may learn a task but that doesn't mean the dog can recall and utilize this principle when called upon to do so. This is where repetition and setting up situations to make it obvious to the dog what skill he/she needs to recall is important. This takes time and while this may seem like a "lull period" this IMHO is the second and essential stage of a dog's learning.
Some second stages take longer than others. For example basic obedience involves simple concepts as compared to angled water entries so while 1 can be learned in weeks the other may take months or years.
I don't understand your "sit" command for better lines. Is your dog steady?
Tim

Todd,
I understand your thinking for not requiring "Sit" when faced with a tempting cheaty mark (perhaps on the memory bird?). You no doubt think that keeping him "rolling" after the first delivery will keep'em "honest"? But in my experience it's the opposite! If he's decheated already (assuming) sit him down and refocus him with a litl' subtle positioning toward the old mark then perhaps if he looks unsure give him a slightly harder "Back/Name" release???
Works for us,
Peake - 1 vote for learns fast but applies slowly aka "Bratty"

Dave;

I don't consider it "brattiness". I think what holds Chesapeake trainers back the most is this kind of anthromorphising. Yes, we call it "brattiness", but in reality, all dogs go through this, and it has nothing to do with the dog "choosing" to disobey. If more people quit labeling this "brattiness", more Chessies would progress further.

In reality, dogs have short-term and long-term memories. They will "learn" something fairly quickly, but it will not register in their long-term memory until it has been "learned" for about five weeks (more or less, depends on the dog). Here's the interesting part: while things are moving from "short-term" to "long-term" memory banks, they often disappear altogether. This is usually the stage when people say "He knows this!" or "She's just defying me!" or some such. Easy to make those kinds of human interpretations of what we see, since in out view of things, the dog has been performing the behavior correctly for over a month now. Now, all of a sudden, the dog acts like it doesn't have a clue. Must be deliberate!

This "learning gap" seems to be very marked in the Chesapeake, and if not handled correctly, can end up in much miscommunication and even setting back or halting the learning progression entirely. Especially if the trainer takes the attitude that this is a deliberate, willfull disobedience on the dog's part (e.g., takes it personally), at which point MOST humans will stop teaching and start punishing. This, of course, does NOT help the memory-shifting process, and in fact could forever create an association in the dog's mind between the behavior it is "memorizing" and any unpleasant situations.

It's because of this learning gap that I tend to tread lightly with a dog when it "suddenly" doesn't remember something it has done well for a while. Rather than force the issue, I will sometimes shine it on like I just don't see the disobedience. I will switch gears and work on a different skill set for a while, and just do "maintenance" things without hassles, for the thing the dog is struggling with. Prime example. Yank was stopping well on the whistle. Then she suddenly was giving me big loopy sits, or not stopping at all! The answer was to stop running blinds, back it up to walking baseball, with a sit-whistle blown before giving each cast, to remind her that the sit whistle is a signal that there will be a cast and a retrieve when she performs the sit correctly. Since she was already sitting, it was a no-brainer that her "obedience" to the sit whistle would be followed up by praise and the reward of a retrieve. That was two weeks ago. On casting drills yesterday (we started the run-by), she had perfect sits again, WITHOUT having to get into a big hassle, re-visit sit drills or anything else. Her whistle-sits are back, and now we can start learning the lesson "Obey the whistle and take the casts, even if you've already got something, and even if it sdoesn't make sense."

Basic control, no big blow-ups or hassles. That's the goal in teaching.

Lisa

I whole heartedly agree with Lisa. Eventhough I have not done much field work, I see the "lull" in obedience work frequently, not only in Chesapeakes, but many other breeds. The switch from short-term to long-term memory, when you're looking for it, is quite obvious;especially when you've got a willing dog. I usually will back the training up to something the dog knows to insure success everytime we train. It helps with the dogs confidence and remember that you are working as a team so HELP your dog every time you can.

As for whether you have a sit or stand on the line (for no cheating), I would think that if you are going to be working on being steady on the line (that being the goal of any particular training situation), make sure he is 100% steady in situations where he cannot cheat, whether the marks be short or long. Once you know where his limit is, you can train from there.

Some of the best training advice I have ever received is: help your dog understand in new/difficult situations (there's a difference between learning and understanding), do not train with your ego, and back-up to something your dog understands/enjoys when during times of stress.

If you rush through the basic foundations of training, you will always see dogs revert to that unwanted behavior or what they first learned in times of stress. So, take your time, be a partner to your dog and don't puch too fast just because you see or train with people who are ahead of you (IMHO)

Shelly

Boy, you take a couple a days off from the web and you get so many good replies that you can hardly remember the response, or at least your questions/answers for responses.

For Timothy,

Oz is more steady than I thought, although I don't trust him entirely. He'll pull a creep, and an occasional break on a flyer, particularly on multiple shots/sluicing. The sit isn't quite as much for steadiness... at that point the bird has been thrown, and the "impulse" of a flyer is gone. The sit is to get a more controlled run to the mark, so he doesn't blow by it.

In my mind the slow v. fast isn't really meant to deal with large concepts, but the daily pace of training.

For Dave,

I do require sit before Oz is sent, if I remember to look to see his a$$ is on the ground. I don't "roll him along" for a memory bird. I have found that he needs to focus for a moment before I can send him... When he remembers the bird, his ears perk up, and then I know he's going to get it.

The idea behind slowing him down at the line, and saying "sit" before I send him, is more to keep him under control while he runs the mark. Sometimes, especially on short birds, if he doesn't step on it he'll have a long hunt, even though his line is dead on.

Lisa and Shelley,

I think that I understand what you are saying, although the question remains in my mind of what exactly my dog KNOWS, and what he acts like he knows that he really doesn't. I'm sure as he gets older I'll have a better idea. The danger would seem to come from not knowing what he knows. If I wrongly think he knows something I might discipline him and cause confusion. On the othre hand, if he KNOWS, I could reinforce disobedience and/or create confusion (I know I'm gonna get it for this! Here it comes! What? You're gonna let me pick up this duck?) Luckily Oz is neither a poker player nor a good liar, so I can generally tell if he knows he's not doing what he's supposed to, and can tell if he is confused as well.
I also liked the concept of blowing the sit whistle to let the dog know the retrieve command is coming up. It works on a lot of levels, especially with a dog that often wants to know "why".


Thank you all for the replies. I once again have something new to look for when I train. I apologize for the unclear nature of my questions/pre-lunch rambling.


Todd

lisa

transfer from short term to long term memory is an interesting concept. hadn't heard or read about that (the majority of my "training knowledge" comes from books or posts on the www).

very glad you mentioned it here. will keep that in mind as julip and i continue to work together.

kind of explains a couple of things about how julip reacts to some of the newer drills/skills we work on.

I wasn't involved with Nate's early training, so don't know how well he "pyramids" new concepts on top of old ones. Rat wasn't too bad at learning new things, and didn't have too big of a memory gap. This bitch I have now, Yank, has a profound blank zone where she'll suddenly act like she doesn't have a clue. Both she and Rat are what I would consider very trainable dogs, but Rat had smoother and shorter transitions during the memory process, thus smoother transition to applying the basics out in the field.

It's interesting, Yank has been quite rocky in transition. I could chalk it up to her early lack of training and socialization, but am hearing from her trainer that Gopher (Yank's daughter) is having a very rocky transition, too. She's gotten much better just in the last two weeks, but my trainer and I had two good long conversations this weekend on just this topic! So I believe the memory issue is one that has at least some genetic component to it.

Lisa