My problem- I line him to the blind "dead bird"
I que him with "good" or if he is looking the wrong way "no" when his back and head are in the direction I want I say "back". But he then lies to me and goes to the left. It seems to take one cast to put him back on line. Then he keeps a good line. Any drills to keep him honest from the initial line? All suggestions welcomed.

He is a senior hunter, WDQ and we are starting Master and qualifying

Try going back to the wagonwheel drills. Use a mix of orange & white bumpers or white and black bumpers. And keep moving the spokes tighter together and deeper until he goes where pointed.
Also stagger the depths of the bumpers so he has to go past a bright white bumper to get to the deeper orange bumper. Remember to keep it fun and be patient, but don't accept the picking up of the wrong bumper.

Tom

tell me what you think of this? what I am doing now is facing into the dog and it seems to help sometimes.

Thank you very much. What you say is everything I think I am doing wrong. I will pay more attention to my body position especially my shoulders which I think I am turning. Also, I'm pretty sure I am not correctly using my hand and I will correct that. Thanks again! I will go out and keep everything you say in mind.

The issue of momentum is correct. When he lines up quickly he leaves the line with good momentum. When it takes long he seems less confident.I am eager to concentrate on my body position.

I agree with all the suggestions that you have been given but I would like to add one more: advanced/circle heeling.
Lining a dog requires that you are able to get the dog to sit straight and make fine adjustment of a few degrees to the dog's entire body.
Teach your dog to heel in circle such that you can pivot your feet and have the dog come straight to heel without the dog lifting his butt off the ground. Do this both clockwise and counter-clockwise moving only a few degrees at a time. After this add heeling straight backwards without the dog standing.
Dogs that don't heel with precision cannot be lined with precision. By doing this your dog will probably be ready to be sent in a matter of seconds with 1-2 adjustment and you can avoid all the confusion.
Tim

I'll work that in as a drill

I haven't done much blind work lately due to attitude problems. Last night I started with 6 walking singles. Ran a mom and pop double. Then one more double. I ran two long blinds on a cross hill right to left with the right to left wind to induce a left fade. I wanted to both work on the initial line and work on right overs also into the wind and a slight up-hill/cross hill.

I took out my healing stick and worked on healing drills (which she hates with a passion)but, I also found her running her blinds faster than I have seen in a long, long time....making me re-think babying her through her crappy attitude.....(a whole different problem/story)

Started out ugly. continued ugly. I gave come in twice to the spot of the lining fault. Then straight back to encourage her to hold her line. Walked out cut the distance in half, re-tried. Same result.

At halfway point, walked her to the blind as a sight blind. Dropped a second bumper. Walked halfway back. Sent on the sight blind and got a nice straight line.

Walked all the way back to the original line and re-sent to the same location. She took a tight line to the blind at 300 yards with not a single whistle. She knew the spot but I was trying to reinforce the line and running with confidence. Felt like I she got it.

I gave her a big "good dead bird!", a couple fun bumpers and called it a day.

I had a thrower yesterday for help, who did give a second thrown bumper on a memory mark and a few hey-heys. Been paying a friend a burger and a beer for services. As far as taking a hike with the whip? that's just me. Nobody but me corrects my dog. Had to learn that lesson the hard way. She's still afraid of a friend who told her "NO!" when she was cheating water....

quote:

Picture of CBRKAIE

I haven't done much blind work lately due to attitude problems.

6 singles, 2 doubles, 2 long blinds and finally 2 sight blinds. Was that all 1 training session?

With the exception of yard drill work my dogs rarely make more than 5-6 retrieves per session(1/2 day).
In the early stages of blind training I will usually run blinds prior to marks. The dogs are rested, anxious to run and there is no fatigue factor(all of which help with attitude).

Tim

Paul you need pattern blinds. Whenever, my young dogs attitude goes down on blinds I run pattern blinds. Attitude goes up and confidence is back.

Also, I sometimes run doubles - ideal selection. go bird is long bird. Memory bird short bird and retired. But before he picks up short I do a blind. Reason: extends memory and gets use to a no bird. I line him up for memory bird say "no bird" and turn him to blind "dead bird".

When I work blinds I just do three blinds. Usually do blinds first then marks. Marks bring attitude up since blinds are stressful.

Back to the topic of bad intial lines. The pro I work for does something that I haven't seen or heard of before and I have seen it work first hand including with my personal dog.

If the dog takes a poor line let them carry it about 50-70yds, sit the dog, either give them a verbal no or nick or burn depending on the dog. Then recall the dog to your side and resend them. In most cases you knowtice a huge improvement in you intial lines. I really thought you would see dogs loose alot of momentum using this method but that hasen't been the case from what I have seen.

Be careful "hot spot" training can come back to bite you.
You are not teaching the dog to line. You are just telling the dog "don't go there, you'll get punished".
Think about it: dog takes poor line you correct/burn dog 50-70 yards away, recall, resend dog avoids where it got burned takes a different line and retrieves the bird. This does not mean the dog is lining better. What do think will happen if after you pick up the bird you were originally sending for the next retrieve is through the spot where you burned the dog?

Tim

This message has been edited. Last edited by: timothy carrion,

I will tell you this Tim, this method if used properly does work. You will start to notice your dog consentrating more when you line them up and they also learn to carry a line farther. I've seen it work to many times on different dogs and it improved my dogs lines dramatically. I agree you have to be careful with it, I think it works best with a more experienced dog. I was very scared to try it with my dog but it work wonders.
I was of the same thinking as you when we first started it. Bear would line most of the blinds on his second send and I was like well it's pretty easy when theres a hot spot out there. But after a while doing this I could tell he was concentrating more on getting the line right the first time and carrying it farther. Tim what should a guy be carefull of when using a method like this?

quote:

Originally posted by Craig:
Tim what should a guy be carefull of when using a method like this?

I think besides the obvious result of this type of correction on cold blinds - 'causing the dog to flare'- I feel doing too much calling back will eventually cause loss of momentum, as well as the dog not looking out with a happy/ positive attitude on blinds....seems counterproductive to me.....just my two cents worth!

Norene S.
Nordom Chesapeakes

Loosing momentum was what I was afraid of and I think if done too often or with the wrong dog it would maybe become an issue, always have to watch for attitude.

Lisa no offence but your post doesn't make much sence to me. If that was the case you would never be able to give a dog a correction because they migh start flaring something. Flaring is usally cause from getting corrected in the same spot multiple times.
You also wrote "it teaches them what is wrong, but does not teach them what is right". Well your hoping they get it right on the next send and don't need to be recalled (we don't use a correction everytime). Success breeds success, its a form of indirect pressure. As stated earlier I nowticed Bear focusing harder when lining him up and also started fighting factors and holding lines better after doing this for a while.

I'll be the first to admitt that I was very hesitant to try this with my dog because it went against alot of what I had read and learned. But the Pro that I work for talked me into it and it has worked very well. He is actually known around here for having dogs that run very good lines. But he also does alot of things that I wouldn't recomend to the normal weekend warrior . Alot of his methods you really have to be able to read dogs very well. I'm still learning...

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Craig Klein,

quote:

... Flaring is usually cause from getting corrected in the same spot multiple times.
You also wrote "it teaches them what is wrong, but does not teach them what is right". Well your hoping they get it right on the next send.....

What caused the flaring on the initial send? Your method does not address the cause only the result.
By your own statement the correction will cause more flaring perpetuating the problem.
When getting a dog to take the correct line I want to improve the dog's chance of success beyond "hoping they get it right". The question that needs to answered is why or what is causing the dog to have a poor line?
The answer may be the dog's previous training (or lack there of).
Every retrieve has components if you cann't identify the origin of the problem the chances of solving(not just pushing a dog a thru this 1 retrieve) are slim.

Tim

This message has been edited. Last edited by: timothy carrion,

quote:

Originally posted by Craig:
Success breeds success, its a form of indirect pressure. As stated earlier I nowticed Bear focusing harder when lining him up and also started fighting factors and holding lines better after doing this for a while.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but calling a dog back is 'pressue' for the dog and that does not equate to success. Indirect pressue is then applied on the recast to compensate for having called the dog back. That of course is assuming that the dog has been forced out properly. Without indirect pressure on the recast you can expect the dog to eventually start bugging and/or popping. If a dog is to happy to return when called back in this situation, then the dog has more than likely not been forced out properly.

Norene S.
Nordom Chesapeakes

Bear's lines were bad last spring from what I figure was from to much upland hunting. He would carry a line for about 40yds or so and start heading for the first peice of good looking cover.

The dog is always sitting when given the correction and then recalled.

I guess I have to ask, if this method is so wrong why has it worked so well with so many dogs? Many MH's

I going print this off and bring it to work with me on monday and see what he has to say about it.

I may be wrong but its hard to argue with success.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Craig Klein,