I was at a hunt test last summer (running junior) and I asked an older gentleman where the Master was because I wanted to go and watch. He proceeded to tell me of his field trail background and his distain for watching the Master Test because “Every other damn mark someone handles their dog”.

Well at the time my dog (my first retriever) didn’t handle so I had never considered this a possibility. Now, my dog handles (sort of anyway) so I have some questions regarding handling on marks. These would pertain primarily to training for hunt tests or field trials. I’ll worry about handling during a test on a separate thread.

I guess in theory you would never handle on a mark, because it is a mark. So is it ever okay to handle on a mark while training? What would the benefits be? The negative side effects seem to be more likely. I guess maybe to keep a dog from switching?

What types of hunts are okay? How do you handle a mark that is marked wrong? How about a mark your dog didn’t see fly at all?

Right now for missed marks I let him hunt a good bit if he misses it. He knows returning empty is a big no-no. If his hunt gets too big I recall him and re-run the mark. For tough concepts I shorten the distance and re run, then pick him up for a while the re run the original distance later that session.

I feel in general most training information out there scarcely addresses promoting good marking habits. In general compared to handling there seems to be very little advice on marking. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

quote:

Right now for missed marks I let him hunt a good bit if he misses it. ...... If his hunt gets too big I recall him and re-run the mark.

instead of calling him in (assuming you are using a winger and he does not handle?) walk out non-chalantly, and walk about the aof - don't talk to him too much, just see if he won't come into the aof and hunt up the bird on his own.......I don't reccommend calling him back in. MHO

In Masters you are GENERALLY only allowed to handle on one mark throughout the test....most people try NOT to handle on land marks...if at all possible.

Juli

Just my own opinion.
If you have people out in the field have them help. If retired - unretire or step out . Hand movement . Sometimes a hey hey.

If no help at mark and using winger. sound duck call. Don't call him back - handle to mark.

When would I handle very rarely. It is important for dog to learn to work it out on his own but if he is totally out of hunt area handle him to mark.

Another time I might handle is on an indented where birds go down around the horn idented retires. Dog picks up go bird then line and send for indented and he goes by indented being sucked in by long bird. I would handle to teach him to check down.

If you handle to much on marks you could encourage popping and you don't teach dog to work things out. On the other hand if you never handle on marks dog my refuse to handle on a mark when you might need to in a field trial or hunt test. Handles in a field trial do get call backs sometimes.

The only time I might call dog back is on a bad initial line. I would never call back when he is out there hunting.

Handling on marks in training is entirely different than handling on marks in competition.

In training handling on a mark can be beneficial in helping a dog through a factor or correcting him for giving in to factor. The factor, not the mark, is then repeated to see if the lesson was learned.
Big hunts are a judgement call. Did the dog just not mark or forget? If so bird boy help will probably serve you better. Is the dog switching or giving up? Correction/handling is probably the way to go.

When competing handling on marks is a survival tactic. In a HT you can usually get away with it once. In a FT there better be a lot of pick-ups to get called back with a handle.

JMO

Tim

Mirroring what Tim said (I started writing this before I saw your post).

Just like everything else in training there is a need to find balance. We handle on marks to teach our dogs proper lines. i.e. dog tries to cheat a piece of water, stop recall to the point where they made the wrong decisions and handle on the proper line. From that point on you must handle them the rest of the way to the mark on the line you want them to follow and if they try to cheat on the way back handle on the proper line back. Now here is where the balance comes in when the dog comes back to line set them back up on the same mark and rerun it. A lot of people will tell you that both of these things are detrimental but the reason for the rerun negates the problems of just handling on the mark. You are putting it back on their shoulders, making them do it the proper way on their own. This time if they make the same mistake we start to apply pressure. Dog bails at the same spot. Stop, recall to that spot, hard whistle-nick-toot and cast. Finish the retrieve, and if you have enough dog left run it again, if not put them up give them some water and bring them out after the other dogs have run and do it again. We keep doing this till they take the line that is expected of them. This is how we teach them the complex concepts required to run field trial marks. Some of the best days of training this way are monster complex singles. You take out all of the other factors involved in multiples and you can really take you time to teach them how to handle these types of marks.

Three important things to remember with this. First you can never expect them to take a better line to the mark the second time than the one you taught them first. So if you let them fall off the hill 10 yards before you stopped to cast you can expect them to fall to the same point before making the push to be a good dog and do the right thing. This is why it is extremely important to keep an eye on them in route and get on the whistle as soon as they start to falter. Also it is important to have throwers that watch you dog just as intently and get on the radio to let you know exactly where the dog is going. In the field your thrower should be watching the dogs eyes to see which way they are thinking about going. On a down the shore mark the dog may start eying the shore early. If they look once they may just by checking their position, if they look twice they are thinking about bailing, three times they’ve already made the decision to bail. The key is to hit that whistle on the second look.

Second never handle to help the dog hunt. If they set up a hunt in the proper place and then start to bail, that’s where the thrower starts to hey, hey or throws another bird. If you help on a hunt you will get pops when a dog is having difficulty coming up with a bird.

And last you have to balance this with marks you know your dog will have success on. If you have to handle on every mark chances are you are setting up concepts that are above your dogs skill level. Simplify and let them do some on their own.

People will tell you that this way of training is backwards and will screw the dog up but trust me it is one of the best ways to teach proper lines and to produce a very conscientious dog.

Again sorry for the long post.

Thanks for the info. Especially the bird boy stuff. Many, many, variables with hand thrown marks and not a lot of education out there for bird boy use, or misuse. My background in versatile training makes me wary of bird boy involvement. I definitely lack the experience to direct my throwers in the right direction. I train with out the help of throwers of any kind most of the time. I usually walk out and throw the marks myself, which surely will present problems in the future, but we make do.

For the most part our problems are factor related. Hilly terrain and just missing the wind are our common problems. Initial lines usually are pretty good. Hopefully as our weather improves I can make some training days and get some use out of my club for throwers.