Took me a moment to get the image in here, finished early today and felt like playing on the computer.

1. First bird shot is a flyer thrown and shot towards the point, it fell at the beginning of the point. Keeping the water out of the picture completely on this mark. Gun then was retired up the hill.Distance is about 175 or so.
2. Distance was 275 to 300 on this mark thrown on back side of covered strip, larger dark circle is a tree. Gunner is retired towards the bottom of the page. Mark is pinched in to number 3
3. Distance on this mark is 225 yards thrown toward second mark down in front of thick cover right at the base of a bush, Gun is left out.
4. Distance is 200 or so thrown from the line left to right, this is the go bird, gun is out for entire set up.

I set this up to train on last Sat. and worked through various level of dogs from beginning level pups just out of transition to dog’s getting ready to run an open. Even if you were running a Hunt test this type of set up is something you need to consider training on. Pull the 100 yards of land off of the front end move down to the waters edge and you have a Master test.

Now using this as a training scenario, think about what and how you would work your dog on it. How would you break this down to get the most out of it for your dog..

hey Marty, I need a picture...

Juli

Man you are impatient, give a fella a break. The logo I built has left me drained, if I had not had this copy of this lake and field in a file I probable would have imploded trying to draw it again. Next time I will post a picture first then the text.

Marty

LOL - did not realize I posted soon after you did... thanks for the pic!

I think if it was me and Hitch, I'd be doing all singles first...1, 4, 3 (because there is no way in Hell my dog would do the quad, well I can't say that...let's just say he's never had the opportunity to try one.... LOL )

I might then come back and try a triple - triple being in order of 3, 4, 1, flyer at station 3.

for the singles all the guns would be out, as we have not trained for retired...knowing Hitch like I do, I would then retire number 3 for the triple and see if he wouldn't push out there to pick it up....

Juli

Young derby dog: Singles: 4,2,1,3 All guns visible for all throws
Older derby dog: 2 Doubles:2-1 then 3-4. Non throwing stations not visible
Qual. dogs: Same 2 doubles with Memory birds 2 and 3 retiring. non-throwing not visible
All-Age dogs: Quad 3,2,1,4 Stations 2 and 3 retire. OR 2 and 3 become blinds with 1 and 4 become poison birds to their adjacent blinds.

JMO

Tim

Right now, today I would go with the following :

Dancer: 3,4,1,....with flyer at station 4, number 3 retires.....number 2 would be a blind.

Money: Same order no retired gun.

Tuffy: Singles 2,3,4,1

Lots of good possibilites with this one!

Norene & Dom
Nordom Chesapeakes

I went through ten dog's on this and only ran it the same way twice. I did not run any of them as a blind as Tim mentioned but if I had thought of it I might have.

The young dog's six month's to post trainsition, I ran as singles as the numbers show.

The long marks we did a fire drill on them to keep dog's moving and looking at the spot where the mark was thrown.

The older Derby/Pre Q dog did the marks as two doubles 1,2 4,3, after dog sent for long memorey bird used fire drill for them as well, instead of handling.

The all age dog's ran as four singles retireing guns as stated as dog was on his way for mark. Came back and ran as a Quad, before we called it a day

We spent almost 5 hours on this one set up working the entire truck through it doing pieces and building to put the multiple's together.

I will probable go back to this lake in a day or so and run the Quad cold for the big dog's and then run two cold doubles with the derby dog's. The young one's will get the marks as singles with help if needed until they can do them without it.

I have the BB throw marks if a dog looses momentum and try to not handle at all.

Marty

Marty

Because I am slow, explain "fire drill"

Thanks

Jeff

I would use it as a tune up drill(blinds)with an all age dog.
Advanced young dogs would get it as cheating singles.

I would change the first birds location though.
I would put it in the water tight to the shore at the other side of the pond.

I never send my dog at water without asking him to get in.

Fire drill
When you send a dog for a mark that has a lot of factors in it points, cover, big water etc. Just as the dog is released you have the bird boy shoot and throw another bumper do a 3 or 4 count shoot and throw again, you continue like this until dog is pulled through the factor or pulled across big water and completes the mark, you have them stop throwing only when there is no doubt that the dog will get the mark.

It will keep the dog's attention on where he is to go and eye's on the spot where the mark is.

Malcomb

The first shot flier is used to set up mark number 3, the bird is thrown towards the point landing on land, there is no water in this mark at all. It is a clear picture for the dog to see that this mark is a land Mark followed by water marks. Fairly common in a Master Test the land water series plus I saw a similar set up in an Open.

I try to train with no absolutes, teaching the dog's that not every time there is water near you do not have to get in it. I do however expect them to get in when sent at water. If you make them get in every time water is near you can create problems with them thinking and over reacting to various scenario's.

I used to feel the same way and train as you described, until I got a part of my anatomy handed to me with 5 dogs in the Land Water series of a Master test. Changed the way I looked things.

Marty

Ok, I follw you.

I think tough water marks will always seperate the dogs though.

Put the birds in the water and 90% will get out and hunt on land!

Water is a barrier, Like cover, stone walls, and ditches.

I do agree, that one must have a balanced dog.

In saying that, I find that if your dog is comfortable on water, land most likely won't be and issue.

By Land is always faster and easier from a dogs perspective.

A good mark would reward the dog that stayed in (showing perserverance), and put a dog who got out early in no mans land. Therefore failing the mark. It makes the Judges job a whole lot easier when dogs eliminate themselves.

I try to break down each individual mark, it's begging middle and end factors.
How wind, water, and scents will effect them.

What i'm still learning as a handler is how they play off of each other to the dog.

What order to pick up the birds and why???

Understanding these things while standing on line is what seperates the great's from the rest of the pack.

Are you attending the specialty in Maine??

I would love to meet you and share some thoughts on dogs over a few cold one's.)

take care,

Malcolm

Which order?

The responses to this training question have been interesting especially in regards to the order people would run. The order probably reflects both the individual dog's problems as well as trainer philosophy.

For the singles I picked: 4-2-1-3
I don't want #1 early in the session because since it is the flyer and the shortest bird this is the first station the dog will key on when it comes to the line. I want to be able to take the dog off that tempting gun and look out. I chose 4 because it is way away from the flyer and sets up #2 to be second for the dog to swim past #4 and not cave into the shore and gun at the end of the swim.
#1 is third as both a reward for the long swim and to force the dog to look out to the final mark #3. This mark IMHO is the most technical. The stage is now set to correct any cheating on the angled water entry/exit/reentry in route to #3.

JMO. What's yours?

Tim

If I were training these marks would be broken into doubles 2&1, then 3&4.

"Drive by the suction and scent of the short gun".

Another scenario would be to retire the short ones and throw a bird from the line.
Then the dog would have to check up on the short one with long gun visible.

It would mostly depend on how your dog is reacting to the cover changes.



In a test as a quad?? It would depend on which guns were retired, and how many dogs have run before me (Scent)

One of the guys training with me has a dog he is prepping to run the Open and Am. He ran this as a Multiple to as he said to see what his dog would do.

The marks were shot as I said 1 2 3 4. Dog left and picked up the go bird with little or no hunt, the 1 and 2 bird retired.

When the dog returned from the go bird he lined up a key'd on the number 3 bird left and took a good initial line got on the point and squared going off which put him on the wrong side of the gun, he backsided the gun drove deep and hunted the other side of the cover before coming back across the cover and picking up the bird.

When the dog came back he looked out and tried to find the next bird but was grey on it. Finally he set up and looked out to the number 2 bird, left on a fare line, swam about 3/4 of the lake and then started pulling towards the line to the number 3 bird, he docked on the shore to the left of the tree just inside the cover between the tree and 3 drove deep and hunted for ever and a day, never got to the fall area and had to handle to pick it up.

On the last mark the short retired flier he had no memorey of it, was sent and avoided cover and angled up the hill and had to be handled back to the flyer.

As my training partner said "guess that was just to much test for him". This is a big test, but typical of what a dog has to be able to do in this area at an All age test. The way we train and how we train effects everything, just "Seeing what he will do" is not good enough anymore. To be competitive in Field Trials you have to have a plan. It becomes more and more evident to me as I start preparing to run more Trials this year than Hunt Tests.

If I was to run this with a dog that I had ready for an Open I would run it in this way.

I would pick number 4 first really making a point of lining him up for it. When he returned let him settle and look out, then pull him to the flier station number 1 and pick it up. After he returned from it I would line him up and send for 3.
Chances are we would do these three marks fairly well, but i would imagine that the long retired number 2 would be a little grey for him.

Ok here comes the Dog/Handler team concept, when I show my dog's the mark's I pick out the "Key" bide and identify it to the dog by talking to him and telling him "There That's Your Money, Money Bird". Making a point of letting him study it a long time, I do not let the order of birds thrown effect emphasis, the bird that is going to be the most trouble is identified this way.

Remember I mentioned really making a point of lining him on the go bird, I did this to instill in his mind the path and how important it was to do it the way I wanted.

This "Closed" that side of the lake off to the dog, he had just picked up number 3 and the gun is exposed, he knows not to go back there. Now, he set's up and has an area to go to even if he is not real solid on that mark I have done my part to help him do his. A big send and then it is all up to the dog.

These kind of tests really are becoming more and more the Dog/Handler team and making sure you do everything you can in training to teach communication as well as concepts to the dog.Really as much of a mind game for the handler as the dog.

Marty

Malcomb
Not sure about the Specialty yet, just will have to see how things go. Dog's MIGHT be ready for the Q and Derby, at least we would get one bird a piece if nothing else hahahaha. Meeting everyone would be more of a reason to go than anything else, getting a chance to see the dog's and put faces to names. Just have to see.

Marty