Several years ago I had a conversation with an owner of a National Amateur field champion. The owner stated the dog could catch a bunch of pop corn in a row with out missing one. I have a dog that will give me her paw on demand. Another who will roll over and play dead. Great “Parlor Tricks”.
Yesterday we were training on some rather long marks, like the ones you will see in poorly planed major stakes, and I realized these long marks were no longer marks but when successfully retrieved were result of training. Just like “Parlor Tricks”! Do you really think a dog can see a dark hen fall in front of a dark background at 500 yards? On long marks the dog sees the gunner [sometimes] hears a shot and sees something thrown. Through training the dog is sent on the side the bird is thrown and runs out to the white coat or where it was and picks up the bird. What a great mark! All this proves is the dog has been trained to run out to the gun and end up on the correct side. Just like my dog that can roll over and play dead, no see-um marks are “Parlor Tricks”. Better train on the long marks or field tricks!
Posts: 521 | Location: Clayton, New Jersey | Registered: Wed July 17 2002
I watched a FT dog nearly line a fairly difficult retired mark that she did not see except for a very split second (at a trial) ...I questioned whether the dog saw the mark at all, actually...the success of the mark was obviously the result of lots of training and repetition, and trust, too..the dog was I think 9-10 yrs old..so she had been there, done that...(owner Roy McFall)...
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Posts: 1351 | Location: Tok ak usa | Registered: Wed January 21 2004
Originally posted by B Smith: Several years ago I had a conversation with an owner of a National Amateur field champion. The owner stated the dog could catch a bunch of pop corn in a row with out missing one. I have a dog that will give me her paw on demand. Another who will roll over and play dead. Great “Parlor Tricks”.
Yesterday we were training on some rather long marks, like the ones you will see in poorly planed major stakes, and I realized these long marks were no longer marks but when successfully retrieved were result of training. Just like “Parlor Tricks”! Do you really think a dog can see a dark hen fall in front of a dark background at 500 yards? On long marks the dog sees the gunner [sometimes] hears a shot and sees something thrown. Through training the dog is sent on the side the bird is thrown and runs out to the white coat or where it was and picks up the bird. What a great mark! All this proves is the dog has been trained to run out to the gun and end up on the correct side. Just like my dog that can roll over and play dead, no see-um marks are “Parlor Tricks”. Better train on the long marks or field tricks!
When I was running the AM at the Pikes Peak FT in Granby this summer I listened in on a conversation about the ability of dogs actually marking something at 300, 400 + yards. If I remember correctly, they were saying 275 yards was pretty the maximum distance a dog could actually "see" a mark and at the longer distances they are better able to detect "motion" than a human.
How far a dog can actually see has been a long running debate. As marks get longer also consider when a dog HEARS the shot. Sound travels at 375 yds/sec. A bird falls about 10 yds/sec. A 400 yard flyer shot 30 feet up is just about on the ground before the the dog hears the shot!
I've also wondered many times about this, I've thrown long birds at quite a few trials and most of the dogs run right at the gun station and veered to one side when they aproach, so are they marking the bird or running to the gun? Thats open to debate. They always talk about needing to separate the field in field trials and needing to use those huge distances, why not use more retired guns or even hidden guns (I know thats against the rules). It would show you the true markers and seperate the dogs from the pups, not?
Originally posted by John Norris: If I remember correctly, they were saying 275 yards was pretty the maximum distance a dog could actually "see" a mark and at the longer distances they are better able to detect "motion" than a human.
This very true. The motion of the bird boy throwing is important in long marks. This is one of the reason that wingers are not used as much in FTs as they are in HTs. When wingers are used in FTs the bird boy is usually instructed to provide arm movement in order to give the dog a better picture.
Interesting thread - yep this reminds me of a really interesting lesson I learned running a UK Novice Hunt Test. It should have been the most simple and straight forward of retrieves. A single mark no more than 75 yards down a woodland path. Yet, dog after dog over shot it by twice the distance.
The retrieve was landing in front of the thrower and so it was landing between him and the dog.The wind was behind the dogs as they ran out, and they were assuming it was at least to one side of him and so were running to that spot and when it wasn't there, running past him. Surprisingly few had marked it.
It taught me to really vary marked retrieves and also when training youngsters to actually have them mark. If they don't go very close to the point of fall I get the thrower to pick up and start again, rather than let them hunt for it. I know darn well they can mismark and sort themselves out with a bit of nose work, but by picking up and starting again they are actually learning to mark properly.
Posts: 204 | Location: United Kingdom | Registered: Mon April 06 2009
