This is kind of a favorite subject of mine when sitting on a tailgate and just talking about dogs and training. I see two schools of thought on how most dogs are trained to run blinds based on available knowledge almost everyone usese.

School number one is to obviously go through the basics of T work, Swim-bye, Land Pattern Blinds, and Water Pattern Blinds. Then start a series of short simple cold blinds on land and water to build up to long complex blinds.

School number two does for the most part the same basics of T, work and to some extent water T. Then goes into the same sort of pattern work, to get to the cold blind stage.

I have watched and trained with many folks that do not use either of the above methods 100%. Yet still have dogs capable of doing the same quality of work. There training methods are less pressure oriented not that pressure is not used, it is. Just not used as the above two schools use it. Blind work is taught not forced, correct lining is more important than handling. Swim-bye is considered unnecessary; the double T is as well.

Curious as to which school you fit into, the current Carr based program/programs, or have any of you tried to think outside the box and try something different.

Marty

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The same Quality of work equals 200 to 300 yard blinds over fences, through ditches by points up channels. Blind work equal to All Age Blinds.

Now all the techniques you listed realate exactly to a Carr based program which you adhere to. This program is pressure based, as I stated above have you ever thought outside the box and tried other methods.

Marty

Cool thread Marty!

I am currently in (I guess) later transition with Hitch...

Have used a lot of pattern blinds, but I have found that it REALLY helps him to have a place to run LONG cold blinds...(long for us is over 200 yds) - and when we can, which is not often, he tends to take a good line for at least 100 yds...

Interestingly he has not been through water T or swim by (not in an official capacity, anyway)..but he is infinitely better at water blinds (very very honest - almost to a fault, I think) - I presume he is better on water blinds because he can't really 'hunt' when he is in water. He just goes the way I tell him..On land he tends to want to try to get away with hunting, which we are working on...

Also - I have decided I much prefer running long blinds than short ones...When running the hunt test blinds this last weekend I felt I had to fight him more on the short blinds - because there was less 'leeway' in letting him carry a cast...

Juli

Lisa
I think you mis-read my thread I typed 200 to 300 yard blinds. All Age distances and technicality.

Style is a major part of running competitive blinds, all training methods need to be evolve for success to occur.

Non-collar methods can and do create extremly stylish dogs it just takes longer to get there. I have worked with seveal dogs that have had no collar work on them what so ever and ran out standing lines. To the point of total astonishment on my part. That however is a different thread.

Collar training is evolving, dogs are progressing faster with the aid of collar correction. I see it everyday here at my kennel, looking back at the years past young dogs are further along sooner than in the past.

The accepted training methods used to day, work no doubt about it. However, I do not think they work as well for our breed as the others. The Carr based systems were created with the majority of the dogs being Labs, so there ability to absorb pressure resulted in todays evolution of Programs utilized today.

Are there alternitive's to the end all be all of dog traning that are touted as "The Way" to train.

Because these methods obviously have not proved effective for all breeds or there would be more Chesapeakes and Goldens running in Trials and Hunt Tests.

Personal likes and dislikes by owners put aside dealing with breed preference, if you want to be competive in trials consistantly you own a black dog on the whole. Labradores success in Trials and Tests are a result of training program designed primarily for them.

I think by following the training methods utilized by the top Labrador trainers we are doing a disservice to our dogs. Hence, the thinking outside of the box of this thread.

Again, have you ever approached training for blind work by thinking outside the box. If so what did you do, what was the result.

Marty

Julie

Think outside the normal yard work box, be analytal about where he is. Does he really need the added "Mental Pressure" of he swimbye and double T. If he is progressing, running good lines and handling crisply do you need the rest.

It is my thought that when a Chesapeake gets to the stage that they understand something why continue to hammer it home.

Labs need that type of consistant repition. I think that when you do that to a Chesapeake you start losing them.

I would be willilng to bet that the majority of young Chessapeakes are lost not because of not being able to mark but because they become resentful of the Mental Pressure and Collar Pressure combined in a program built to make another breed successful.

They just shut down and either fight or sulk there way to being washed out. Intelligence is our dogs strong point, so why continue with concepts they already understand. Turning it into drudgery or dread for them.

Not trying to tell you to change the way you train just offering a little "Mental Pressure" to you.

Marty

There is a pro up here who uses almost exclusively attrition when teaching blinds ( no collar correction until the dog is pretty much 'finished' - at least that is the way he explained it to me)...he teaches pattern blinds by throwing a mark to the location of the blind and running it as a mark..then puts the dog up...comes back after running all the dogs on that mark and runs the 'blind' with the gunner still in position, then comes back a couple more times and runs with the gunner hidden....

His dogs do all right, but not great, on blinds - IMO - I also think that running too many blinds like this could lead to a dog that thinks it is a good thing to go back to an old fall when running a blind after running marks......

I have taken some of your previous advice for Alan, when running Hitch on blinds...if he is being a butthead, I let him sit and sweat a little...Also, for Hitch a loud 'NO' works as good or better than a collar correction if he is fighting me on casts...also, I have found that if he takes a poor initial line and I bring him all the way back in, he is more likely to take a better initial line the second time....
He seems to be best affected by a good verbal scolding -
Juli

Marty just a thought - When I went to the Rorem seminar he would false line the dogs for 200 + yards then you handle to the blind. He felt it was at the end of the blind where the cast mad or broke you. You now ask well your lying to the dog? Well answer dog doesn't know your lying he only knows the cast. Also remember you are also using the handlers triangle in the last cast. Just a thought don't get to deep into.

Right now I'm having major blind problems with my young dog. I'm following the Bill Burke method.

Oh yeah, Don't forget Juli you need balance. Work short blinds and long blinds. Don't be fooled you do get short blinds in field trials and then you go for the long blind right over the short blind or close enough. Balance. Just my opinion and I make enough mistakes on my own.

Mike
I agree with the dog doesn't know he has been sent to the wrong place, I use it especially with a young dog letting them roll to gain confiedence on blinds.

Curious about the "Bill Burks" method, if you can and it is not a "Double Knot Spy Secret" expand on it please.

Marty

No secrete just cried on Bill's shoulder how disappointed I was and he put me back together. Went back to the beginning. Get Bill here

Oh I occassionally cry on Scott Martins shoulders too.

Marty, I agree with you. It has been my experience that CBRs do get bored and don't really accept pressure for the sake of pressure as well as Labs.
My "outside of the box" is different for different dogs. IMHO the trick gets back to READING THE DOG.
Watching the dog's head, eyes and brain/attitude to see what component of the blind the dog is either not understanding or defying. For example, early on I used birdboy/pop-up blinds with my current 22 month old because I would see his head start to wander. His line was fine, he wasn't breaking stride but he wasn't focused.
Pressure or handling could have been used to force the dog to the blind but a dog's focus and drive in doing blinds comes as much his own confidence as is does from me or a collar.
Blinds need to be more than an advanced obedience drill. I want a dog to look out,get a picture,be confident in running/swimming to that far corner where I point them.

JMO

Tim

Lisa
You can word the discription of the Carr based method anyway you like, today's systems are based on Pressure and were created for Lab folks by Lab trainiers.

You have read the original question and answered it as you saw fit. I could not have been any plainer in at lest two of the additional posts I made on this.

Success breeds success, if you think for one minute that if the roles had not been reversed and folks were winning field trials with Chesapeakes more often than Labs that the Majority of dogs competing would not be Chesapeakes you are mistaken. Winning counts Passing Hunt Tests counts in the competitive games. OUR DOG'S do not flourish under a Carr based program.

I started this thread not to re-hash current methods but to start a converstaion to see if anyone had considered thining outside the Carr based programs our "outside the box" (see first, second and third post last scentence) don't think I could make it any plainer than that.

Call it what you will, if you asked where the folks got there program from, all you need to do is ask Danny Farmer, Bill Echett, Dave Roerem, Jerry Patopea, Judy Ackock etc, not leaving any National or multiple Field Trial producing trainers out for a reason, this is who just came to mind. All of them will tell you it came from Carr.

We don't have in our breed a top National Professional touting our dogs, why is that?

They do not flourish under there Carr based programs or to ease your mind Programs used by top Professionals today. If they did we would see a much higher percentage of Chesapeaks being succesful at trials.

Most importantly if they flourished under the Carr based methods, Pro's would be recommending them to people to buy.

This thread is wondering form what I orginally started it for.

So once again for the FOURTH TIME what if any training methods do you use that are outside the box or currently used Carr based programs.

Marty

Tim
You could not be more correct, reading the dog is the most improtant of all things a trainier can do.

I have seen pop up binds used but have never tried or used them myself. I have a tendency to "Back Trail" a blind with a young dog instead.

I have always been curious wondering if using pop up blinds could cause an old fall problem with a young dog. Have you experienced this or do you use them spairingly and only during a certian time frame in training.

Seeing the picture you want the dog to see is the most important aspect of running a blind could not agree with you more.

Marty

Mike

Would like nothing more than to have Bill post over here, he has an open invitation and I would be all ears.

Marty

Julie
I think as you do in regards to creating an old fall issue, unless he uses this method only a time or two until pile is established.

I have moved away from runnig pattern blinds once I finish with the single T, I move on to a "One Whistle One Cast Drill" that I picked up from Jack Gwaltney years ago and then on to cold blinds.

Marty

can you explain the one whistle one cast 'drill'?

Juli

Juli asked before I did.

Could you also dscribe "Back Trail" a blind?

Don't have much to add, just trying to pick something up fromm the back and forth.

Good thread.

Damon

One whistle one cast is a simpel drill that works on focus, communication, lining, casting but most of all confidence both for the dog and handler. You will begin to see subtle changes in there body language you have not noticed before. Eye's, Shoulders, Front Legs etc.

You set up three piles as shown on the visual. Start at about 20 yards and send as if you were running a cold blind. You pick up a bumper starting from the outside either from left to right or right to left.I only work form one direction at a time the first week or so. When I feel confident that the dog is ready then I will change the direction from left to right.

If successful you back up 10 yards and repeat the same order, you continue backing up until dog fails to run to the pile sent for. Usually you will send for the middle and they will dive for an outside pile.

You whistle sit and give a literal cast to the correct pile. You stary at that distance until you get the line correct to all three piles picking up three bumpers right to left or left to right. Then you back up 10 yards and repeat.

It may take three or four days to get the line's to the correct piles 3 times correctly.

You do not advance down the field until you can pick up three bumpers form each pile going L/R or R/L. AT NO TIME DO YOU RE-CALL OR RE-SEND, OR USE COLLAR CORRECTIONS, you simple whistle for sit and cast.

As you move down the field you will see the dog start to focus and carry his lines longer before he "Cops" out and makes a mistake. After working on this for a week or so you will see it start carrying over to cold blinds. Initial lines will be longer and the first cast you give will be taken crisply and with more athourity.

As a handler it will give you a gut check about how you well read your dog and it will make you pick up on his body language quicker when he makes a mistake.

You will also start running your cold blinds tighter to the line without hacking and trying to square up the line. The dog learns to carry literal casts quickly and carry them longer.

This is one drll that I demand my clients run at least once a week during Hunt Test season, it tunes up there reflexes and the dogs as well.

Marty

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Back Trailing

Is just what it says, you take the dog with you to the end of the blind and sit him at the end of it. I leave two bumpers there incase the dog picks one up when I call him to me.


I walk back or ride the 4 wheeler back to where the line is call the dog to me. I make sure that I handle the dog to me using the correct line of the blind. Over a point, bye a point etc., then when they return I toss a happy bumper and tell them what a good dog they were.

Heel the dog and step up and run the blind, it will not be a perfect line to the blind but you will take 75% or the stress of doing it "Right" out of the blind.

You will see the dog make the correct choice about over or buy a point because you told him coming home what you wanted. Releaving the possibility of a collar correction for docking or not docking which ever the case may be.

This is how I start my "Picture Blinds" with Mid to late Transition dog's I will do this with an older dog that is feeling a little leary about what I want as well.

When you run a Back Trailed Blind it is not a 100% cold blind obviously, but doing it this way gives the dog confidence about doing a difficult blind and doing the correct thing or line because he is going someplace he has already been.

Marty