Just a question on force fetch. Is it neccessary to force fetch a natural retriever? I have two young pups at about 16 weeks. They are retrieving to hand, doing good on basic obedience(sit, stay, here, etc.). They have been introduced to both live and dead birds(pigeons). They want to chew the birds, but have taken care of that problem by freezing dead birds. Very birdy and will hunt for the bird if placed in the yard. I have had three labs, and two other chessies, all have been trained to the whistle and hand signals. They all would do blinds, and none have been forced. I have a wild hair about wanting to try field trialing. It seems like everything I have read about training for field trials has a section on force fetch. Is it neccessary to force fetch in order to be competive in a modern American field trial? I do understand that it may may be neccessary in some situations, but is it really neccessary if no problems present themselves? Thanks.

Elbert Rush
animalx1@excite.com

Hello Elbert,
I really don't know the situation in the FT world in the USA is and I think it's a matter of looking how and why your dog does develope him-or herself.
In total of 4 chesapeake I owned,I only did once forced fetch and the reason was a stupid one!!!
When you get a little bit older and you're going to look in a very different way to things and you get closer to your dogs and spent more time with them,you're not in a hurry to do and learn things to your dog.
Mostly,I think,it is a lack of time,inexperience,too many dogs,to eager in competition,hush and hurry, etc.etc.
I agree with a Pro to do some forced things,and that is his job,to prepare a dog in a very short time and solve problems the owners have.Time and money!!!!
When,as you say,you have a natural retriever,and that is looking at the pedigree and talking,listening,searching and communication with the breeders on FT dogs,I should be crazy to forced fetch such a dog.It would harm him more than that he learn.
So I would look for a FTbreeder with natural and purebred dogs,but nowadays we don't have the time anymore to wait,watch and see when something very good will be born and can develop in an easy way and be honest,strict and be a "packleader"for your dog!!!!!
DD

I do hunt tests and have done qualifying in Ft. You have a misunderstanding about force fetching. Force fetching is essential to having a fully trained retriever. Force Fetching reinforces what you have taught your dog. In addition, you must understand the difference between active and passive retrieving. Passive is what comes natural. Active is what we teach our dogs in addition to what is natural. Without introducing active retrieving through the first stage being force fetching your dog may never reach his/her potential as a fully trained retiever.
I suggest you observe hunt test and field trials. And you will see the difference between a dog who does passive retrieving and one that has both passive and active. This is just my opinion and what I say may be of no value.

This has been a frequent question.
As with most things in triaining it is not an absolute but I think it is a good idea. Force fetching is an extension of basic command -response obedience drills. That can only help in future training.
It is not a difficult thing to do and it is not all that time consuming.
So the real question is: Why not FF?

Tim

_____________________________________________

FF is essential to having a fully-trained companion
Moscowitz
_____________________________________________

_____________________________________________

So the real question is: Why not FF?

timothy carrion
_____________________________________________

Both are 100% accurate!

Force-fetching is the first step/building-block in the "Great Pyramid" of ADVANCED RETRIEVER TRAINING!

Bruce

How much time a day should you train ff. I don't want to over due it. Or is there such a thing. I train about 20min. a day 3-4 day a week.Thanks

My husband Dom does the FF on our dogs........he spends about 10 minutes, somettimes twice a day, everyday if possible at the onset....depending. Keeping the dog's attitude up and not building resentment is important.......at least I think so.......

Norene S.

Tenor,
Norene is correct about Ten minutes is the Max amount when possible to end on a good note i.e. solid hold, an open accepting mouth, a reach for etc. Sometimes it not possible to advance forward so back up and find a constructive point as F-F often is two steps forward one back...think calm p-a-t-i-e-n-c-e!
Good Training,
DaveB

Natural training for a retriever is great "IF" the retriever brings back the bird or "IF" it takes the bird off in to the bush and eats it either way it's natural but a retriever that has basic obedience first then force fetch has a foundation of training that will last the retriever the rest of his life. All training is not written in stone if you have a return problem or a hold problem you can always step back and do a little tune up training I have a pup and his idea of doing anything was his way or his way, at six months of age he weight's 70lb. after obedience and FF it has sunk in the more I do as told the more I get to retrieve and work in the field and it payed of this summer one weekend WC/JR/HT earning one leg but as I was once told when I was younger "do as you like" and live a day longer. just my 2cts.worth.

Go to www.northernflight.com
Butch Goodwin a CBR guy has video/reading material explaining and showing FF.

If you're not comfortable doing it yourself, have a pro(reputable) do it for you.

Good luck!

It's funny how this old thread comes to life every couple years--look at the original date, it's from 2003! I think animalx1 still posts on here and in fact I think he has FF'd those 2 pups and put some titles on them, too.

20 min is too long, IMHO.....IF you need to help keep track of the time you're spending try using a kitchen timer and setting it for about 8 minutes...(That way you have a couple of minutes to work the dog out of the session)...

Juli

quote:

It's funny how this old thread comes to life every couple years--look at the original date, it's from 2003! I think animalx1 still posts on here and in fact I think he has FF'd those 2 pups and put some titles on them, too.

Yes, I still post here now and again. I have changed my attitude about the FF issue 180 degrees. I think it is a VERY important part of any training program. I did indeed finish FF with the two dogs in my original post, I do hunt tests and not field trials, and I have put a couple of titles on the dogs. I also have been fortunate enough to find two other 'Peakes since then. One has been FF'ed and has a couple of titles, and one is just 10 months old, just finished with FF in time for the duck season, and will be going on her first duck hunt at the end of this week, either Thurs. or Fri.

So out of 4 'Peakes, all of them have been FF'ed. I am still going about it amish style, but I have emphysema and I just can't hit the shoe leather express like I use to when I need to make a correction, so using a collar is becoming more attractive all the time.

I guess there is a lesson there for the newer guys and girls. If a stubborn, grizzled up, white bearded, emphysema ridden, old SOB like me can train a Chesapeake, with a little patience and understanding you should be able to train your Chessie also.

Elbert

Elbert [QUOTE]If a stubborn, grizzled up, white bearded, emphysema ridden, old SOB like me can train a Chesapeake, with a little patience and understanding you should be able to train your Chessie also.

Elbert I know where you are coming from health wise i,m in the same boat, less the beard my dogs kind of like it when I just walk out into the field to have a talk with them. They must figure it gives them time for me to settle down for our conversation when I get there I just kneel down and stroke them I have never seen a dog go so silly when they find out they are not in trouble, up my way they call it fracturing a dog with kindness.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Marvin Calhoun,

I love the term "amish style", since I am more of a hands on, patience, let them understand before correction, codger myself as opposed to the hurry up lets fry them into submission type of trainer, I appreciate what you are doing. I just didn't realize I was training Amish style for so many years....

Codger's tend to appreciate the joy of watching the dogs work for the right reasons. Cahoun and Animalx1 keep up the good work.

Oh yeah I have never had a dog that wasn't FF, it doesn't have to be a chore, it is just a step in having a complete retriever.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by MooseMT:
I love the term "amish style", since I am more of a hands on, patience, let them understand before correction, codger myself as opposed to the hurry up lets fry them into submission type of trainer, I appreciate what you are doing. I just didn't realize I was training Amish style for so many years....

Jeff, I'm virtually certain Chris Atkinson, coined the term "Amish training," simply meaning "without electricity," on his retrievertraining.net board,and it's common usage rapidly spread from there.

quote:

Originally posted by animalx1:
Is it neccessary to force fetch a natural retriever?

Know that's an old question in more ways than one, but the answer is still "no". It is not necessary to FF any dog, natural retriever or not, to teach and condition retrieving's requirements or to make it clear that they are requirements. FF is just one way of doing so.

I've trained retriever completely Amish, and with Clicker, as well as with FF, and pressure.

I've also guided waterfowl hunts where 100 retrieves where normal, many times.

As a Chessie, and high performing retriever fan, I would suggest delving deep into the purposes for using FF - it has little to do with actual "fetching", and far more to do with conditioning clarity in pressure responding and momentum.

With aspirations of achieving any retrievers potential, seeking high level performance, I'd be 99% inclined to FF.

Furthermore I'd be LESS inclined to FF a retriever with little natural ability and/or drive while being MORE inclined to use FF in training progression for a very NATURAL and driven retriever.

With best regards,

Wayne Dibbley
Next Level Retriever Training

Hi !
I think Lisa and Tim have it correct .It's not forcing the dog to fetch,carry and release a bird as much as it is teaching the dog to be under controll and to control his own obedience !
This leads a dog to understand how to take and release pressure of everyday training and helps to lead into learning and controlling other situations . it developes there mental awareness !
It is a tool not a confrontation and should be done with litle or no attitude of winnig !Just teaching !
It will come in handy when they are carrying a cripple and you don't want them to set in down
becuase you could shot your dog as the bird tries ti get away !
Only my view not the written word !!!!!
Martin Pinder

quote:

Originally posted by Martin Pinder:
Hi !
I think Lisa and Tim have it correct .It's not forcing the dog to fetch,carry and release a bird as much as it is teaching the dog to be under controll and to control his own obedience !
This leads a dog to understand how to take and release pressure of everyday training and helps to lead into learning and controlling other situations . it developes there mental awareness !

I'm curious if anyone is suggesting that FF is necessary (which was, of course, the question) to accomplish those things - other than as a foundation step to show Pup how to turn off the pressure used in force-to proceedures?