I am using Evan Grahm's force fetching dvd to force my chessie. My question is the dog in his video snatches the bumber with vigor, but mine does not do it. Am I not applying enough force? I am not sure if he is ready to go to the collar due to this?

Not enough force. Probably

Be careful about applying more and more pressure if you're no sure or confident about what you're doing; you can cause a lot of harm. Keep in mind that the dogs pictured in ff videos have already accepted and nearly mastered the step they are shown performing. That's a big flaw in the videos for first timers, they don't show what can go wrong and how to work through it.

With some "sensitive" dogs, increasing pressure will only cause them to shut down and resist more. Other dogs respond well to increased pressure. Knowing which type of dog you have can be difficult if you lack experience.

I have too girls. The oldest (now 1 1/2 yrs) is naturally very sensitive about pressure. The youngest (almost 11 months) has always responded well to pressure and doesn't have a problem understanding what it means. It took my older girl a long time to learn the meaning of pressure and how to positively respond to it.

Also keep in mind that everything that can be taught using ff, can also be taught without it. I'm not against the process. Like anything, when done right, it yields great results. When done wrong, possible disaster. I tried it with my older girl (not a good candidate for a first-timer due to her sensitivity) and didn't find it to be a good experience. I stopped the process before completing, spent several months undoing the negative associations I created, and with patience I now have a wonderful, highly obedient worker that now tolerates pressure quite well. Looking back, she learned the lessons that ff teaches, but it was too stressful at the time. We're now in to advanced training and having lots of fun and lots of success.

I'm not forcing my younger girl, although I know she's the type what would go through in a week or two, wagging her tail all the way. I've found other ways to teach the holding and carrying requirements (lots of mouth conditioning) and obedience is not a problem. She's a very submissive, eager to please girl, and it rarely crosses her mind to disobey. She also has had no problem understanding and responding to pressure. She's also into advanced training and doing wonderful. Neither pup drops, both respond positively to training pressure (can't remember the last time I saw an avoidance behavior).

Leif

I am trying to go a little slower because I have a friend(lab owner) that talked me into forcing with an e-collar. That was a big mistake, he didn't do well with the pressure and my friend wasn't around to help so I'm going at it slow. As far as retrieving, he did a great job with bumbers until the collar fetching then he shut down. I take him hunting and he loves birds and goes hard to get them, but without finishing forcing him he drops them at my feet. I guess I should just kepp plugging away and not rush?

As Julie suggested get with someone that has been there done that. It is really impossible to "read a dog" online.

Remember that video is the final edited version of multiple attempts.

An opinion: It sounds like you need to go back to force to hold before you get to forcing to fetch. You are a long way from using a e-collar.

Tim

I'm not sure how much experience Lief has or Shreek but listen to Tim. To not FF with your dog is to allow a big gap in his training and will someday bite you in the ass. I would not start force fetch with an e-collar but I would find someone with experience to do the force fetch or teach you. Force Fetch is not about retrieving it is about a valuable tool you will need to advance.

I would listen to Moscowitz's last post and be careful what you read on the internet and find someone who has done more than a few dogs and also not automatically assume your not using enough force. Maybe you've gone to fast and the amount of force is adequate. Maybe you need to back up, maybe its time to move on and accept what you get for now. Find someone in your area that has done more than a few dogs. Don't be to stingy to pay a little for help and best of luck. Be sure the dog understands what is being asked of them before applying e-collar pressure, because they won't understand otherwise......as you are finding out.

Chris Payne
405-880-7514

Chris hit the nail on the head.

Some of our dogs just get tired of the whole thing and never get a lot of enthiusm for the ff process. I have a bitch that no matter what you do just wouldn't so I moved on to more fun things for her. We ran our first Jh test. The first bird was thrown and due to the birdboys enexperience threw a duck with the breast totally torn away. She retrieved the duck but spit it out when she got back to me and wouldn't pick it up. The judge saw what was happening and said to take her back aways and picked up the duck and replaced it and then I said fetch and she jumped and picked it up. We passed and went 4 straight in JH and Sh after that. So read the dog, Keep it FUN!

Thanks everyone for all the help. I'm going to keep on working and I'll let everyone know how we are doing.

I think your ff may not have been done properly. Properly ff dog will pick up anything.

A FFed dog will look for something to put in their mouth upon command. It will usually look and grab the most obvious item in an attempt to please.
The key is "upon command".If there is nothing in front of the dog you want you will not command.
I have never used lead or e-collar transmitter during FF training but if I drop these items I can have dog pick them up because they are obvious and recognized.

Tim

EVERY time you apply force, even and especially in your FF. You should look for and see a favourable change in behavior. Sometimes you may elect to repeat with pressure a few times in a row, and then without pressure to check te response.

If you're forcing repeatedly and getting poor, improper or no change in your dogs response,something is off, amount of pressure, the dog's clarity in the process, or your timing.

You shouldn't move ahead in the process without seeing your dog "aha moment" at the stage you're at (one step at a time) - and then repeating enough after the "aha moment" for the response to be fluent/reliable.

If you're having trouble and uncertain seek some knowledgeable help. If you're using Evan's program, I'm sure he'd be willing to help you over a hurdle you're having.

All the best

Wayne
www.retrievercoach.com

I'd like to add another question to this thread.

First...Wayne... I love your quote! I preach a similar line with the same meaning.... written by, well...me.... "Anyone can break a dog, Not many can train one!"

When using the E collar and transitioning the dog to it, where is the collar stimuli placed? Around the neck, I assume.

I have FF trained many dogs, of different pointing breeds, and have intentions to train my 2 Chessies in a similar manner. I'd like to hear others opinions on the method....

I believe we should use multiple stimuli points in training. Come and turn (neck) Whoa (waist) drop (flank) fetch (ear).

I don't train with an E collar, just reinforce with it, what was instilled on the table or on a short lead previously.

That said.... I have developed a way to transfer the stimuli on an e collar from the neck to the ear. Doing this eliminates the transitioning and doesn't add another conditioned response to the neck.

I have used this method for years with pointing breeds. It works well in the yard, field and water.

Any ideas, opinions or theories on it's uses with my Chessies?

Phil

Phil,

I transition from ear to collar, and use the ear pinch at the transmitter to do so. This works very well, and I also have used it on various breeds, equally successfully.

Your Chessie's will progress the same also especially if you're governing your force to improve responding, and giving opportunity to demonstrate improvement at each stage - if that makes any sense.

I'm not sure what you mean about transferring the stimuli from neck to ear, but please elaborate.

What I will do is achieve a successful ear pinch response and generalize it well. When we're ready I'll use the transmitter button with the ear pinch to transfer the conditioned ear response to a collar response. The transition normally goes pretty quickly.

All the best

Wayne Dibbley
www.retrievercoach.com

Wayne,

What I meant by saying I transferred the stimuli from the neck to the ear is.... I rigged one of my collars... I removed the prongs and attached small connectors, coated the connections in plastic, they are attached to a rheostat, for lack of better words. This is put on the dogs ear. This way the conditioned response is used in the same place we started with on the table.

I like your theory on making the transition.

My reason behind this method is trying to keep it simple and redundant for the dog. Especially for a breed that wants to please. Meaning not using the same stimuli or area for multiple conditioned responses. I hope this made sense... I have rewritten it three times.... trying to put into words as I have this thought out!

quote:

Your Chessie's will progress the same also especially if you're governing your force to improve responding, and giving opportunity to demonstrate improvement at each stage - if that makes any sense.

Yes it does... I don't use the e collar until the very end of the table training. Although they are wearing it most of the time. I train the retrieve the same as most... using the ear pinch in the manner you have explained... It sounds like we have a similar method... except for the ending.

Just thinking out loud...

Phil