CH Silvercreek Murray Samuel, MH got a jam in the Amature All Age at the SHoreline Retriever CLub Field Trial this weekend.

Murray also got a reserve jam in the qual - last series he had a control break.

Mike,
CONGRATS, it is really great to see how far you two have come. Super job, keep it going.

Congratulations to MIke and Murray! I saw Murray run the tough set of Amateur land marks. The long retired gun was a tricky bird that lost many dogs. Murray made it look easy!

Wendy

Thank you Ken. I remember running my first qual under you.

Wendy lets not get carried away. Murray picked up the bird on the retired gun but it wasn't that pretty. Murray that weekend had an out of body experience - he thought he was a lab!!! I don't think I'll ever have a weekend that good.

Congratulations Mike and Murray!

John

Congratulations to Michael Moscowitz, Joanne & Stan Silver, Diane Ammerman and most especially to Murray!

Mike,
Congratulations. I doubt that he had an out of body experiencee. You can't accidentally blunder into finishing both the qual and am. He must be a nice dog, and I bet he'll do it again. Not mmany amateurs finish major stakes with the first dog thy've trained. Keep it up.
Bill

Super news, keep up the good work!

Congratulations to Mike & Murray! I'd say that's pretty dang impressive to finish and get ribbons in both. Nice dog and good job to owner/trainer/handler! Julie R.

Thanks everyone. Julie, I am theowner, handler and trainer. And I'm a little embarrased to tellyou but we don't use a collar.

I think it is totally awesome that you are not using a collar - just shows you can get places without one - all the more to you I say!!!
A big BIG CONGRATS!

Congrats Mike but I guess you haven't heard here on the 'net, "Why you can't train for FT's ala Amish???" I'm glad no one told your QAA Dawg Murray!
Waytahgo,
Dave B.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Dave B,

Murray is a wonderful partner. I'm just a terrible handler and trainer and am not allowed to use a collar. However, I have known some people that I train with that would like to have a collar around my neck.

Congratulations! In Europe most retrievers are trained Amishly and without FF etc. E-collars are forbidden by law.

My newbie idea is that typical retriever traits like spontaneous retrieving and wish to cooperate etc are at risk to be lost in the long run if the breeding does not select for these traits. Force training makes the natural abilities less important. Or am I wrong?

Linda -
I used to think a lot the way you do.

Breeding the best dogs should be the number one goal of all breeders.... I think many breeders that trial or hunt their dogs seriously do try to breed for the best traits - therefore you will continue to get the desirable traits of trainability, drive, temperment, working confirmation, etc. out of working stock dogs.... Now conformation only breeding - that's another story all together, and one we chessie owners and breeders need to be very careful about, lest the chesapeake becomes two seperate dogs as did the labrador and golden...

I have seen some very unanimated retrievers at hunt tests and the few ft I have been to...this would lead me to believe that these dogs were forced into doing everything they were taught - including forced to retrieve (which is not really ff, in my opinion). I have also heard of other dogs like this ---those that took twenty minutes to complete a test (walking to the marks). Did the dog pass the test? I would assume so, or the dogs' owner would not have continued to run the ht's.


Besides a very few unmotivated dogs in the ft ht arena, I think you will find more intense retrievers, than you did 30 years ago. (Not to say that these dogs can actually hunt upland game, as breeding for nose, hunt, and prey drive are three different things)

I think today's retrievers, in a broad sense, have been bred to handle pressure better than did their forefathers. If a dog is going to be successful in today's FT's, it's got to be able to overcome a lot of pressure - this means more prey drive, not less. Not only does today's ft breeding need to produce intense prey drive, it also needs to have trainability, working conformation, focus, and temperment (among other things).

A collar, when used correctly, will serve to help a dog learn more quickly by giving instantaneous correction. Therefore the dog may only repeat the same mistake 3-4 times, rather than the 10-15 times that it's pre-collar predecessor did. In America - as you know - we like things done quickly, LOL. So most (if not all) trialers collar train because it gets the dogs through transition and into maintainance training much much more quickly......

Now - that said - I do believe that ft breeding is producing a lot of dogs that dont know how to 'hunt' - I mean real life hunt. FT serves only three basic purposes, to ascertain trainability, drive, and focus. Breeding for trainability and drive does not mean you will get a dog the knows how to hunt - that is an innate trait- the dog either has it or it doesn't. I am sure there are a lot of FT bred dogs that do have the 'hunt' drive - but I also believe that just as many dont - esp in the lab....

Juli