Keith in the other thread made an intresting point about it seeming that alot more of the dogs at the specialty seem bigger. My guess is its the strong showing of Blaze offspring. Blaze has thrown a pile of great dogs and thank God he is N/N. With out him feild peakes would be in a world of hurt. Now looking toward the future I can see the possibliity of another bottle neck mainly because off his NN DM status.
So what studs are availible right now that are NN and strong feild dogs without any blaze? My guess is there few and far between.

TTT There's gotta be a few, lets hear them.

How about Jon & Carol Knapp's dog - Quail Run's Two Buck Chuck - DM Normal, QAA, just got an Open Jam at the FT Specialty and has two majors toward a conformation championship!

The hard thing Craig, is that many people have not made public the test results of their dogs...this includes dogs that are NN, AN, AA....so it is really hard to make a list like that...

Chuck is definitely one...

also
Rogue of Rainbow Farm, I believe is normal

Lind's Northcreek Magnum MH(not sure if he is still standing at stud or if there is frozen semen on him though)

Safe Harbor Treasure Lake Geo

Sugar Tree's Moose Pond Gunner

Tugboat's Woods Colt (did not run trials, as far as I know, but MH)

Sunshine Sally Forth

WW Button's Sly MacGregor

Craig,

"Blaze" has produced well and it is great that he is DM normal, but one of the points I was getting at,is comparing size of offspring from "Rudy","Benny" and "Blaze" and the combination of those lines to previous well known sires like "Decks", "Tiger", "Canvas", "Boss" and others. And if you want to go back even further to "Surf", "Chip", "Jesse", "Barry" and others, one may find the increase in overall size and weight of quite a few of the younger field Chesapeakes. It just caught my attention.

And the DM issue will play out in breeding decisions that people will make. But also it is important to look at all the other qualities a male potential stud may have depending on what your breeding goals may be and not just the DM issue. I sure would not want to lose good alternative field bloodlines because the male was not DM "normal".

Keith

well said Keith,

I for one hope that people don't get caught up in the 'must have N/N stud dog' mentality. It is one small facet of the whole (much larger) picture.

Juli

One thing that has been identfied.
The dogs that proven they can do the work are either carriers or affected! Very few clear dogs available that can do the work.

There might be other issues as well outside of DM.

I'm not going to use names, but a group of us were discussing this topic at the specialty.

We concluded that someone is going to have to make a decision to breed these dogs together.

Neutering or culling the non-clear pups with full disclosure has to be a potential option.

The question of ethics and how, weighed on the minds of all participating in the discussion!

It might be our only way to save the working side of the breed.

Trust me, there were some phenominal dogs show cased at the specialty that can compete against and beat any lab!
This was proven the week before the specialty and the week after in all breed trials.

These dogs need to be bred to other strong dogs.
Then trained up and showcased.

I wish this topic was pursued during our dinner, so everyone could have particpated.

Let's keep a healthy dialog about this and hopefully get some folks with strong dogs to consider breeding them to other strong dogs.

quote:

Originally posted by Malcolm Haith:
One thing that has been identfied.
The dogs that proven they can do the work are either carriers or affected! Very few clear dogs available that can do the work.

There might be other issues as well outside of DM.

I'm not going to use names, but a group of us were discussing this topic at the specialty.

We concluded that someone is going to have to make a decision to breed these dogs together.

Neutering or culling the non-clear pups with full disclosure has to be a potential option.

The question of ethics and how, weighed on the minds of all participating in the discussion!

It might be our only way to save the working side of the breed.

Trust me, there were some phenominal dogs show cased at the specialty that can compete against and beat any lab!
This was proven the week before the specialty and the week after in all breed trials.

These dogs need to be bred to other strong dogs.
Then trained up and showcased.

I wish this topic was pursued during our dinner, so everyone could have particpated.

Let's keep a healthy dialog about this and hopefully get some folks with strong dogs to consider breeding them to other strong dogs.

I am sure you are speaking toward FT dogs only. FT dogs are a very small percentage of the breeding population. The ones that can compete from weekend to weekend with repeated success even smaller....(success being subjective, I know)...
IMHO, FT people need to start looking outside the box...Not an easy task, I can imagine...I personally would find it exceedingly difficult to breed to 'just' a MH, if I had a bitch that was an excellent FT dog...thankfully I don't have to make that kind of decision! IT does seem, however, that not only are people going to need to take some risk and breed carrier to carrier, but also take some risk and go away from the traditional 'ft' lines - of which there are only 5-6 lines, which all share common ancestors fairly close up.


Breeders of 'hunt test', 'conformation', and compation/hunting dogs have a distinct advantage to breeders of 'FT' dogs. Their options are considerably larger.(also this is by far the largest group of puppies being whelped and sold to John Q Public)


It is great that there continues to be open discussion about the issue.

I can only speak for my self. But when I go to the field trial specialty I look for where I am getting my next chessie. Malcolm was right there were some really nice dogs. If you want my opinion Spirit owned by Mosha. There is Chester, Paladin and Hanna. I liked Hanna and Spirit as potential breeders.

Thats a nice list Julie, wish it was longer. From what I have seen people are dead set about not breeding to an A/A stud, I've had over 10 people aproach me at hunt test after seeing Bear run and are all giddy about doing a breeding to him untill you tell them he's A/A then they say oh thats to bad and you never here from them again. Everyone says we should be doing these breedings but it will be intresting to see how many of them actually happen, my guess is very few, but I hope I'm wrong.
But what whould you do if you had a real nice NN bitch, it would be tough to breed her to an AA knowing all pups would be carriers, its a tough decision and I hope people look at the whole dog and not try to weed out DM in one or two generations and loose a bunch of productive lines in the process.

I would have no problem breeding an N/N bitch to an A/A dog...period...I can't imagine someone even making an issue of it...

The answers have not yet been determined and people need to remember that.

Juli

quote:

I would have no problem breeding an N/N bitch to an A/A dog...period...I can't imagine someone even making an issue of it...

I'm with Juli on this. Hell, until we find out how many genes it takes to cause an actual case of DM, we have no way of knowing how risky it would be to breed A/A to A/A. We can run in circles, scream and shout that the sky is falling, but like with Chicken Little, I suspect it really isn't.

Time will tell on this issue. In the UK DM ran through a specific line like an express train breaking hearts and dreams along it's tracks. Now other lines are affected and I watch sadly my youngster's sire struggling through his last few months, but safe in the knowledge that as her dam is clear she is just a carrier. I will definitely breed with her.

A few years down the line DM has reared it's head somewhere through all our lines to some degree or other. What I suspect might emerge in the coming years - given that the status of "at risk" doesn't automatically lead to an affected dog, is that some lines are more likely to produce affected dogs from AA than others.

Certainly evidence here is suggesting this to me at the moment, precisely because there are other genes that are a factor. One cluster of breedings produced so many affected dogs it has really scared people. The high percentage would put anyone off breeding carriers and at risk dogs together - and quite rightly, but I suspect the other yet unknown factors played a hand in the debacle.

Would I breed my bitch to a carrier if a dog turned up in the UK that had other credentials I really wanted? I wouldn't dismiss the possibility, but it would really have to be something very, very special and how easy is it for me to hypothosize when the "irresistable" carrier or at risk dog isn't stood in front of me? If my suspicion is right that some lines will produce far more affected adults from AA dogs than others,to cull or not to cull AA puppies becomes an even more pertinent question.

We have this test, which isn't the end of the tunnel, but it gives us some light to begin our seach. Mistakes will likely be made along the way and finger pointing will be inevitable. Having very recently witnessed the tears of a breeder whose line was devistated by DM years ago I understand entirely the reticence, and abject horror of many to producing anything that might be at risk.

Having seen the dogs at the Specialty and having loads of assumptions and expectations smashed ( I thought that the field lines would look like the whippets our trial bred labradors have become), I too was surprised (pleasantly, I might add) by the size of a lot of the dogs.

As I posted on another thread it was heartening to see a very high proportion of solid, good looking dogs. I'm quite aware it isn't everyone's priority but if I work Chesapeakes I like them to look like Chesapeakes and some of those dogs were stunners.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jacky simpson,

Heck, I was just glad to see all the pics of the dogs I saw from the trial were good looking chesapeakes!

I am seeing too many ugly chesapeakes any more, and no, I am not a show person, but we have to remember to keeping breeding for ALL the important traits that make chessies such wonderful dogs!

I agree with all of the above. Having had a dog suffer with DM, it's not an experience I wish to repeat, so personally I wouldn't want to take the risk of purchasing an 'at risk' puppy. However, I'd happily purchase a DM carrier.
As for determining the 'other factors', I hope someone somewhere is keeping a record of how many of the 'at risk' dogs do become affected with DM?
Sue

Keep in mind some of the pups will be clear!

The clear dogs from these breeding can hold the key to preserving the proven working dog traits of the breed.

We have a variety of nice males and females that we all can benefit from.

Ego's and agenda's need to be put aside for these things to happen!

Hopefully everyone can open their eye's to the possibilities.

Still Hopefull!!!!

Malcolm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Malcolm Haith:
"Keep in mind some of the pups will be clear!

The clear dogs from these breeding can hold the key to preserving the proven working dog traits of the breed."



There appears to be an assumption in the UK that Chesapeakes are THE thoroughly dual purpose retriever (or tri purpose in that first and foremost a huge percentage are pets ahead of their hunting and/or show careers. Possibly they come the closest to being a dual purpose as most are good bird dogs and conform reasonably well to the standard. However, in breeding for conformation and easier temperament, whilst we still have dogs that are great hunters on the real deal we seem to have a dearth of animals that are flat as hell to train, with very little drive and enthusiasm, or are of the over sensitive nature that they are very difficult to do much with.

Our recent UK hunt tests showed me probably 20 -25% decent animals, and the rest were, frankly so depressing I don't like to think about it. Maybe some of this was down to inexprerienced handlers but watching animlas peeing on the way out to retrieves isn't something that fills me with great hope!

There is a very x-Atlantic trial bred male, staying briefly in the UK at the moment who might be of good use to our stock. Alas the "politics" of who he is staying with, and the fact that he is a DM carrier, who won't win in the show ring probably means that he won't be an influence we may well actually benefit from.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jacky simpson,

Our recent UK hunt tests showed me probably 20 -25% decent animals, and the rest were, frankly so depressing I don't like to think about it. Maybe some of this was down to inexprerienced handlers but watching animlas peeing on the way out to retrieves isn't something that fills me with great hope!

Julie, this is why I always refer to FT dogs.
Proven prey drive component!!!!

Hunt test's aren't the arena to determine if a dog can do it!

It's not a knock on the dogs, Ht's just don't give an indication of the animals ability to mark when confronted with demanding obstacles and distance.

This is what FT people are looking for. You can teach concepts, but you can't make them want to do it!

Trotting or walking out to marks with disinterest is unacceptable, in any breed.

Unfortunately this discribes alot of our breed!

So Hunt testers, don't be afraid to show case your dogs and thier abilities at a FT near you.

If there is anyone in my area that would like some help getting started contact me!

If you just want a hunting dog, then there really isn't a place in this discussion for you.

We need people who are willing to prove their dogs are capable by competing in the venue's we are discussing FT's.

"Hunt test's aren't the arena to determine if a dog can do it!"



Not to get into a hunt test vs FT debate, but I see a pile of QAA dogs fail master hunt test around here and its not always control issues. I even saw an FC fail two test this summer. I can't speak for the rest of the country but up here you will not get a MH title unless your dog can mark and has plenty of drive, you might be able to pass a half ass dog if you threw a pile of money at it and only ran when certain judges were judging, but that dog would even have to have some talent.

I hear out of state pros complaining all the time about MN judges setting up way to tough of test. But majority of our judges are field trial or x-field trial guys. So if your dog gets a MH here anyways it means something.

Thanks Kent...Well said!

Juli