Started this topic on CBRS4ME and it has generated some interesting chatter!

With all these health screening checks, I believe we are reaching a saturation point with our breed. The reality is, the more you look, the more likely it is that you wil find something. If you never x-ray your dog, you will never know if it is dysplastic or not. And so forth.

I think we all, breeders, veterinarians, buyers, need to step back and remember what this breed is FOR. This is a working gundog breed. Those things that will affect the breed's ability to function in this capacity should be higher priority than those things which do not affect a dog's working capacity, but which there just happens to be a test.

Let me clarify: just because there is a test, does not mean that our dogs MUST pass it. And just because there is NOT a test, does not mean we can ignore that health problem if it is a major quality-of-life issue.

So, how would you prioritize, if you are looking for a stud dog, or buying a pup? Just name your top 3!

I'll start: autoimmune issues are right at the top of my list. No test for these, so they get blythely swept under the rug by those who encounter it (or worse, bully and intimidate people into keeping silent). Autoimmune diseases can be devastating, both physically and financially, and really impact quality of life. Forget working ability; even mild forms of autoimmune, like food or inhalent allergies and hypothyroid can affect a dog's ability to work.

Next on my list would be epilepsy and other seizure disorders. No test, and no hope of one any time soon, at least for our breed! yet, I would never hunt over water with a dog that has seizures. The risk of drowning is too great.

Third would be elbow dysplasia, which isn't one thing, it is actually three different heritable diseases. Some dogs get one kind, some dogs get another. Gopher didn't pass elbows; she is fine, but others are not as fortunate. It can lead to chronic, unaleivable pain for some individual dogs. Definitely a work-inhibitor. Even though she appears symptom-free, Gopher does have trouble with swimming. The pulling motion through the water with her front legs causes her discomfort, and sometimes she has difficulty negotiating up a bank after a long swim.

You'll notice that of the three on my list, NONE of the current hot-button DNA tests is listed! DM, while devastating in some individuals, is extremely uncommon in our breed (it took 2 years for the ACC and ACCCT to find 12 dogs that actually were affected with true DM). Our breed seems to have an abundance of other factors that prevent even A/A tested dogs from developing DM. More research is needed, and I for one have no intention of avoiding A/A dogs either in breeding or buying.

PRA? I've been my rounds, and frankly, the line I had with it didn't go blind until they hit their teens. I think PRA was such a headline-grabber in the early days because it was a convenient club with which we could beat each other over the head. Now with the DNA test, we find the gene frequency is somewhere around 1-2%. A very rare condition, indeed!

What about EIC? Again, we have no idea what the gene frequency is. And realistically, most affected dogs can live perfectly symptom-free lives with management. It isn't a quality-of-life issue so much as a quality-of-performance issue. Dogs that undergo rigorous FT training are most likely to show symptoms. Pets and gun dogs almost never will. Should I make passing an EIC test a deal breaker when shopping for pups or stud dogs? Not in my book!

I think we all need to really think these things through, and remember to maintain perspecive. especially true when discussing other breeders' decisions and priorities. Remember, they have just as much right to set their own priorities as you do. Theirs might be different; so just don't buy pups from them. It doesn't make them the Great Evil, just holders of a different opinion. At the end of the day, we have to remember that every dog is a carrier for *something*. We all have to pick our poison, and make compromises. The perfect dog doesn't exist.

Lisa, no disrespect, but I think you just "blew a wire" in my brain

Posted this on another topic, but it belongs here.
Kent


Well I think it's good that there are health tests for our dogs to bolster the need for quality in the breed, I do not think and will not let it affect the need to maintain and make better the other half of what I perceive to be the most important part of our dogs.......there abilities in the field !

Let's back up the clock to better times IMHO..
When people who needed a dog to help put food on the table and then occasionally participation in a welcomed tournament to show off our dogs. I don't think anybody cared about health as long as the dog was walking, running, retrieving, hunting, chewing up intruders etc.
Most people like many today looked at the Sire & Dam for how they worked.....period !

Therfore I digress to explain what should be the intent of all of us who care about the breed. Using common sense will be the prevailing factor in conjunction with modern day tests to make our choices.... are there guarantees ? Heck no, never were and never will be......so what next ?

Because I am priviledged to be able to use what these dogs were bred for and have numbers of other hunters see my dogs perform, my world is pretty easy to work in . Before I even considered breeding my dogs and before I had two with us in the blind, other hunters who were able to see them work liked what they saw.They told there friends and behold ...we know have our own fan club. Some belong to our club and others watch from the picked wire next door. But most have come by word of mouth. We now have a waiting list and by last count poor Rita would have to have twenty teets to give the people what they want....A good hunting dog !
Not one person asked anything about the health of these dogs.

If I do decide to breed my dogs you know we will use common sense first and let the dice roll out........It is still a crap shoot. I am presently having health tests performed on my dogs. Cane's hips are certified "Good" and he is CERFED... Rita's DM tests are pending.

I do not see the need for anyone to panic because of these continued issues of health. As far as those who badmouth one another, backstab each other, put up fences etc. and otherwise subtract from the quality of this breed....looks like same o same o...welcome to my world.

Some things no matter what will ever change people...and coupled with greed , some have no chance at all.

Lets hope we all will learn from our mistakes and use common sense to better the breed without damaging what it has taken a lifetime to achieve.

Most of all lets respect one another !


Sorry way too much coffee this morning.


Kent

Lisa 's post was excellent, and it did generate a lot of responses on the CBRS4ME board (which I can't post to ).

So far, I would have to say that I've been blessed with ongoing generations of structurally correct CBRS with excellent temperament, trainability & field ability, and who are clearing elbows & hips with goods and excellents. So as long as that continues, it allows me to concentrate on other health issues. With my current breeding stock, it's PRA as the bitches from my Star line have continued to come back as Optigen B/Carrier despite 2 generations of A/Clear dogs for fathers. Since I've produced PRA in the past, it's a big concern for me.

Having hearing of the dogs from other lines with epilepsy over the years, I have attempted to breed to lines that don't produce this, and have been successful so far. As these lines that previously produced the epilepsy are now producing more and more clear dogs from a conscientious on the part of breeders now, perhaps there will be a time when I will consider them, but not until then.

I just submitted the DNA test to OFA for my Annie, aka Ch. Sandy Oak's Wish Upon A Star CGC, and am hopeful she will come back an N/N as she is from pretty much the same lines as another dog who has also recently come back an N/N, but it won't be the end of the world or her breeding career if she doesn't because in all my years of breeding, I can't say that my lines have ever produced DM.

The possibiity of EIC was also never a concern for me, but the two dogs who I had tested for this in the initial testing came back clear as did a 3rd dog who was the sire of one of these other dogs, so hereagain, it's also not a concern.

I would have to say that my focus is, and always has been, on producing pups of sound mind & temperment, that are healthy, trainable, good field dogs, and of correct size and structure for a CBR who will also work in the field.

When people call me for pups, very few even ask about health clearances or titles, but rather want a good pet and perhaps a gun dog and are concerned about buying from a reputable breeder. Many of my sales go to people who have purchased pups from me previously and now those dogs have died of old age.

Most of my dogs live to a ripe old age and are healthy, so I must be doing something right.

Kathy Miller
Sandy Oak Chesapeakes

Kathy

Excellent job, I agree you must be doing something right.

Jeff

Lisa, I agree with what you are saying and I HOPE people will GET what you are saying! Good Post!

Lisa and Kathy, you are both right on. I have learned a ton from you both in just the few short weeks I've been on the board. Kudos.

I think Lisas prioritys are dead on in regards to top of the list down. Having my girl die 9 weeks ago or so of IM Thrombocytopenia was a horrible experience. Basically disenegrate internally right in front of your eyes. And a vet telling me she will be fine and she can save her, $5500 and 15 hours later dead dog! I hope no one ever has to go through that!