Things a pup can be taught form 8 weeks of age until ready to begin FF.
1. here
2. heel
3. sit
4. Mark
5. Casting to a platform
6. Back casting to platform
7. Over casting to platform
8. Casting from on platform to another
9. Casting into a boat
10.Casting out of boat
11.intro to feathers (probable most inportent)
12.intro to gunshot
13.intro to water marks
14.intro to land marks

This is a truncated list of things that my new pups get in the first month. Most of them happen in the first two weeks and are built on to extend distance and difficulty. There are probable some I have left out if you see something that needs added or that you do pass it on.

The casting to a platform is something I am doing with Storm. I picked her up form the airport last Wed. and Thursday morning we went to the lake to swim and start water marks as well as a walk around the pond. Friday I started the casting to a platform with treats as a reward and after only about three or four attempts she understood the command jumps on the platform sits and waits for her reward. One week of this and this morning introduced a second platform and asked her to cast from the first one to the second after a slight hesitation (you could see her processing what I was asking she bailed off of the platform she was on and ran to the other which was only about 6 feet away. I cast her back and forth 3 or 4 times and ended the session.

I don't pretend to claim that this is something extraordinary it is just the start of a learning process to smooth the way into advanced work. I could see her process and understand what I asked her to do. After all getting them to think and make correct choices is what Trial work is about.

Marty

Marty
I would think casting to the platform would make swim-by a breeze.

Can you explain in more detail? What kind of platform? Where near the water? etc.

You can't tell if a pup has bottom at 4 months but you sure can tell if the sire and Dam have it. Pretty good indicator to me that the pups will also have it. With the three that I am running now, that has proven to be the case. The female is now a MH has jammed the derby and the qual but I can't afford playing that game.
The two males, 2 and 3 years old are on the way to the MH. I hope this helps you out.

Marty,

would you feel using road cones for sight blinds or "walking blinds" and for casting drills would be a similar training method as you are using with the platforms? Either the plat forms or the cones are helping explain what you want when casting or driving back? I just want to know if, I am understand correctly. I am not familiar with the use of platforms other than for anti-creeping exercises.

Thanks, Paul

quote:

Originally posted by Clayton Evans:
You can't tell if a pup has bottom at 4 months but you sure can tell if the sire and Dam have it. Pretty good indicator to me that the pups will also have it. With the three that I am running now, that has proven to be the case. The female is now a MH has jammed the derby and the qual but I can't afford playing that game.
The two males, 2 and 3 years old are on the way to the MH. I hope this helps you out.

Thanks for your explaintion of what you consider puppy bottom.
Other than FC/AFC Titles, in my humble opinion other titles & field trial finishes, do not necessarily indicate that a dog has 'bottom'. But then again, maybe "bottom" has a different meaning to different people.


Norene S.
Nordom Chesapeakes

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Norene S.,

I'll throw this out there, I work for a pro on weekends. One of the first days there he took a twelve week old pup out of the kennel and strapped an e-collar around her neck, I almost broke out laughing, I ask what are you doing? He replied were going to start collar conditioning this pup. This was totally against everything I had ever learned, but I then thought this guys been a pro for 30+ years and is a rep./consultant for a major collar company, maybe I should listen. He used super light intensity and with in a couple minute had the pup coming on command even with distractions. It was amazing how fast the pup figured out how to turm off pressure, and yes the pup kept a very good attitude.. I would not reccommend that anyone try this method unless you are extremly good at reading dogs and have a collar that will dial way down. The way he explained it was that a using a leash, a crop, rope, hand what ever they are all forms of presure. He said that he use to use the conventional ways but he's had better faster results with the collar. I asked why none of the common training programs use this method, and he answered "because you have to be able to read a dog and not many people can do that" . This method works very well for him, he does use very short sessions, treats and birds to keep good attitude. By 4 months alot of his dogs know how to turn of pressure by coming, sitting and also moving (aka keel up) its a very collar orianted program, but its amazing how happy his dogs are. It may suprize people but the only complaint I've heard about this pro is that he is to light handed, opposite of what people think of when they here of a strong collar program. Sorry this is a little off topic, actually opposite of what we were talking about pos. vs. neg. reenforcement.

One question Norene has asked Clayton was when and how do you know how much bottom end a dog has, My opinion you can have a pretty good idea of how much bottom some dogs have by 4 months, I look at drive and how do they respond to small corections in early ob. Some dogs change alot though when they hit puberty(sp?) So its hard to say for sure untill they are a year + old.
Its been a while since we've had a real good tread on here thanks Marty, lets keep it going.

Craig

Mike and Paul

The steps to teach a pup to get on a platform is almost so easy it is scary. I use Bacon strips bought at wal-mart you can use anything that pup likes to eat. I get the pup near the platform and toll them onto the platform with the treat and say place as they step on. As soon as they are on the platform I say sit and treat when the sit is done (pup needs to be sitting on command before starting). I leave them on the platform as long as they want to be on it. When they leave the platform I wait about 10 or 15 seconds and then repeat the command place then toll and sit then treat. After about three or four "places" I stop and call it done for that session. We then go for a walk or do some water marks or just hang out until latter in the day and do it again. It took about 6 sessions over 4 days and Storm was going to the platform in the kitchen as soon as pointed at the platform and said place. It was really pretty cool to see her figure out that the platform meant reward. Pretty simple, but effective. One other note I started in the kitchen to help with focus and keep distractions to a minimum, distraction in puppies in the one thing that is a given, so having as little as possible is a big help.

The platforms are made out of 1X3's and are 2' by 3'. I have not used them near the water yet that will come later. Right now I am using them in different spots around the farm on land. Storm is only 10 weeks old. Using the platform gives her an area to relate the action to a reward. As she gets older and more proficient at this I will sustitue bumpers for treats.

I am going to guess this will happen in about a month or more. My goal is to have her casting to three platforms wherever I place them by the time she is 4 months old and slowly substitute bumpers, birds etc. The platform will be used as a teaching tool not as a part of advanced work.

My plan is to pull the platforms around 4/5 months of age and substitute the area that I do my single T in. Laying the foundation for, I will call it early early yard work. If it comes together by the time she finishs FF (if she is ready at 6 months) the T will be done and the TT and Swimbye will flow.

As an aside I will introduce sit to a whistle in the same manner,with treats until it becomes learned, making Collar conditioning on it go smoothly as well.

I have seen many folks use cones/buckets as part of there training routine, in most cases I have seen dogs have a hard time transitioning. I have never used platforms for older dogs, they are used as I described for pups in the 8 through 16 week stage of life then transitioned to "normal" yard work.

Using a collar on a 12 week old pup is something for an experienced trainer. I rarely get a pup prior to 6 months or older to start. Only if I purchase a pup such as Bang and Storm do I get the chance to work with them at that young age. I spend a lot of time with my little guys so I rarely have to work on here, heel, etc with a collar.

Keep in mind I am trying to build a system to help her "LEARN" quicker and stimulate her reasoning process so that she will make the right choice more often than the wrong. If she does better in the yard than Bang, who was remarkable then I will probable get another pup to do the same way and continue the process.

The only problem is I will end up owning more dogs than I am being payed to train. Not a problem for me but the wife gets a little twitchy when I own most of the dogs in the kennel.

Marty

Great post Craig!

There are a number of very well known and successfull trainers (both pro and amateur) that have incorporated early collar conditioning with their young dogs.

And yeah, Marty is on a "roll" but it is a very good one.

Keith

Operant Conditioning is the science of learning - it is not about training - but the laws within it have been used to describe how the consequences to a response (behavior) make that behavior more or less likely to recur.

Unfortunately zealots on both sides of the fence (positive only) and (old school force only) have created barriers, thinking their training methods are best.

Reality is that operant conditioning describes why what you are doing is or is NOT working. It's a learning language/training language.

Their are basically four quadrants in operant conditioning positive and negative reinforcement and positive and negative punishment. Theses are mathmatical in a sense not "good" or "bad".

The same rules describe timing application impact of clickers and treats, birds in the field, collar corrections, leash jerks, and a plethora of other behavior impacting factors in your dogs environment - some you control, many you don't.

The best quote I've ever read on the subject was by Karen Pryor who said something like this - "If what you are doing while you are training is not working, than whether you are aware of it or not, you are breaking the laws of operant conditioning. If what you are doing is working, then whether you know it or not you are obeying the laws of learning.".

OC applies to our own behaviors, the natural operant behaviors of animals, and is a great way to describe and refine what we do in our dog training.

With very best regards,

Wayne Dibbley
Next Level Retriever Training
PRTA Pro
CAPPDT
Ontario Canada

Additionally - I do train using clickers and target blinds with puppies. Pre force I use early low level collar conditioning. In my opinion it all translates well later on in more typical formal training and when these pups go through a typical basics program.

Delta is a UKC hunt test dog but seemed capable of more. She UH'd at 11 months, and HR'd at 13 months. She needs two more passes for her HRCH, after recovering from TPLO surgery and being lay up quite a while. She did a lot of target (click and treat) type training as a puppy and would run out on pop ups, targets, etc. and deliver pigeons at a VERY young age.

Pat Nolan at Ponderosakennels is experimenting with success, using positive reinforcement with puppies, to teach marking configurations, cover drills, etc. etc. I don't think he uses clickers but he does apply positive reinforcement on successive approximations to get some pretty neat results from very little pups.

I have done a lot of target and bridging experamentation. For pups and young or sensitive dogs, using positive marker type training, can really help get them going - at some time though if you're talking a competitive dog you need to go through typical basics.

It's also an excellent way to establish responding prior to forcing on a response, and or to mark very tiny approximations or details in a behavior you want to capture that you couldn't force to occur.

Best Regards,

Wayne Dibbley
Next Level Retriever Training
PRTA Pro
CAPPDT
Ontario Canada

Great Post !

Now if you can add the incredible amount of luck one needs as well you have solved the equation to every dog trainers problems.

IMHO To achieve this method would take the right dog. The pool from which to draw from is limited and there is still the inevitable crap shoot we all face when setting off on this journey.

Absoultely a great topic and idea !

Thanks

Kent

Thanks for taking the time and explaining in detail. The evolution of a good post brings me back to re-reading from start to finish again. This style of training is one that I have not read much about or personally experienced.

Any books available which focus on this style?

quote:

Originally posted by Crossfire Hurricane:
Great Post !

Now if you can add the incredible amount of luck one needs as well you have solved the equation to every dog trainers problems.

IMHO To achieve this method would take the right dog. The pool from which to draw from is limited and there is still the inevitable crap shoot we all face when setting off on this journey.

Absoultely a great topic and idea !

Thanks

Kent

Luck? It takes a great dog and the "right dog" for any type of succesful high level competition. You can apply "the program" to a t, and only "the right" dogs will succeed.

OC, describes when the e-collar is working, or the positive reinforcement, and why.

It doesn't take "luck", it takes a good dog to start with, and then excellent timing (regadless of the type of training methods you are using)...good timing, great set ups, know how and a good dog to start, and you'll do something.

I think it was Danny Farmer that said he'd take an average marker that was highly trainable, over an excellent marker that was difficult to train any day. Same applies here in terms of the skill of trainer, timing, reading the dog and etc.

A great dog in the wrong hands, poor timing, whether you're clicking, leash popping, e-stimming etc. - and that dog isn't going to make it. A lesser dog in well timed hands, consistent training, great set ups, etc. and that dog will come along just fine.

Add "luck" when you're talking about AFC, FC'ing etc., nearly everything else that is standard driven, can be achieved with consistency and good timing.

just my two cents

Wayne Dibbley
Next Level Retriever Training
PRTA Pro
CAPPDT
Ontario

No matter the type of training you use, it all boils down to the trainer doing the right thing at the right time as Wayne stated.

When dealing with our breed the gene pool for competitive dogs at the Field Trial level is small. In some worlds this would be considered a bad thing. But looking at it form a competitors stand point a smaller pool to draw from increases your chance to find the "Right Dog". I am not interested in being a breeder or trying to as some folks say "Better the Breed" I will leave that to folks with more knowledge than I have,I am Competitor and train Competitive dogs. As any Competitor I am looking for ways to help my dogs learn to make the correct choices at a Trial.

I have been to several seminars over the years and spent countless hours on the phone with folks that have little if nothing to do with Field Trials or Hunt Test. But they do train Dogs, Dolphins, Whales and Horses, using methods that in there field are not the norm. All of them have made there mark and now have devotee's of their methods. Some as Wayne stated earlier to the extreme.

If you bring up Clicker Training, Treats or even putting a collar on a 4 month old pup on a after training tailgate conversation eyebrows raise and folks start edging away from you with that look in there eye that he might be a "Brick Shy of a Full Load".

I still go back to the belief that the reason our dogs are not in the last series on Sunday is the style of training done at an early age and there is little if no information on starting a young Chessie pup other than the current Programs. It is not a question of talent or intelligence it is the approach to there training. Once the key is found to open the door for them we will see more than one or two of our dogs winning and placing on the weekends.

I for one can't wait to start seeing that happen.

Marty

quote:

A great dog in the wrong hands, poor timing, whether you're clicking, leash popping, e-stimming etc. - and that dog isn't going to make it. A lesser dog in well timed hands, consistent training, great set ups, etc. and that dog will come along just fine.

amen!

AFC & FC'ing is exactly what I meant.

Sorry I didn't just come out and say it.

I do however think if you ask any of the top rated professionals who consistently win they will tell you they are very lucky.

I do agree 110% that it takes the right dog too.I will also say that if a trainer isn't lucky enough to have supreme training facilities that getting the dog to the promised land will take a miracle.

But without luck the average Joe like most is cannon fodder.

Thanks for the response.

Kent

Another variable that everyone is forgetting is that the top pros get the top dogs to train. A Lardy, Atar, Farmer, Pleasant, Rorem do not put chessies on their truck they put top labs and only run top labs or they wash them out real fast. They have the ability to dispose of dogs that are not coming along. And as soon as they dispose of that dog they have a new one on the truck. We as amatuers in most cases won't, can't etc. dispose of our dogs. We have to make the best of what we are dealt with in most cases. And in a lot of cases we disregard reality or the real ability of our dogs. Every post - my dog is an awesome marker, my dog runs blinds like marks, he has so much bottom, retriever machine. So this is another variable not considered. Just my opinion

Moscowitz nails it right on the head there.

I have trained with and worked for some of and one of if not the very best field trial pros to date.

The most notable quote made to me was this " a truck full of good dogs will make you look good, son!". ; )

Regarding wash outs, many of those wash outs could make it in an ameteurs or different pros hands, or a different program were there was more time allotable to that dog and it's "issues". The top pros are full, and the dogs have to able to progress within the daily program. Dont' get me wrong the pros will vary approaches and applications as needed, but the very top pros have little time, need or capacity to divert from the standard program. Another dog that "will fit" and compete can fill that spot.

For the record, I take and enjoy Chessies very much ; ).

All the best

Wayne Dibbley
Next Level Retriever Training
PRTA Pro
CAPPDT
Ontario
wdibbley@hotmail.com