Mike
In answer to your question, my take is a lack of mental maturity or maybe mental toughness?

I will use Cuda as an example, He was not mentally ready for FF at 6 months of age still wearing his heart on his sleeve and taking it personally when corrected for anything. At 14 months we finished FF and went through the yard but not as smoothly as I would have liked. At twenty three months of age he had ran 3 derbies picked up in the 3rd twice and the 4th once. By the age of 26 months of age he was a Master Hunter. He has had a great Hunt Test career, the older he got the better he became, if I held the course he would have been QAA.

All this being said, even tho there is no time frame for them our dogs take a long time to "GET IT" and as you said they can take pressure. That is the basis of most popular training programs.

What I am trying to do is try to kick start there grey matter early hoping to help create a process that allows them to learn quicker, easier allowing them to handle the pressure in training. All pressure is not collar pressure in training for advanced work it is easy to think it is. MENTAL pressure is a bigger part of training than I think most realize.

Thinking and for me training outside the box a little I have seen what I think with Bang fairly good results, hoping Storm does even better.

Marty

Marty,
The procedure you describe with the "walking lining" I first experienced when training with my father around 1960. These drills were introduced to establish obedience(an unnatural act) thru retrieving(the natural instinct). The command/response of sending the dog to something it wanted and having it return to you on a light cord. At this stage it was a game but the dog learned to use its eyes, focus,and was set free on command. To this day my pups will usually line to visible bumper before they really know what heel- sit means. I feel fortunate that I first learned training pre e-collar. There was more teaching of the individual dog. People did dot speak of forcing or programs. IMHO it is the need for more teaching rather than mental maturity that slows the advancement of the CBR. But, once understanding is achieved their memory translates into consistency
There is an old book published in the '60s "The New Knowledge of Dog Behavior" by Paffenberger(sp) that described the early learning stages for dogs. I think you would find it an interesting read.

Tim

I trained Monday with a field trialer who has a CLF that jammed a derby at 6 month 2 days old. We did 2 down the shore with both birds landing on the band in tall grass. This pup smasher both marks with the longest at 275 yds.
Bills wife Mickie broke this dog out but was quiet about how she did it. I asked Bill at what age he forced her and it was 4 months. I also have FF my last 4 cbrs at 4 months. One of them finished her SH at 16 months and my present one at 2 years due to the limited amount of tests and of course the money.
My stratigy is lots of wing clips starting at 6 weeks until starting FF. Obedience starts in ernest at 8 weeks and the wing clip is the reward after completion of that and they don't get treats at all.

This thread has been great especially since I just got a puppy I want to start her off right.

Clayton did you FF the pups before they started teething?

I also have been reading that some people are CCing thier dogs on obediance before FF.

At 8 weeks what kind of collar were you using on the pups?


Would you guys recoment the pup living outside in a kennel run or inside with the family in the crate at night or when no one is home?

Yes my pups are ff before they start teething and they don't where a collar at that age. I cc after ff is almost complete so that I can reinforce the ff for it to be completed.
I don't in anyway suggest that you ff your pup at 4 months. Read the dog to see if it is ready before starting that early. Mine all were as they have a lot of bottom end. One I just finished ff and jump shot a Canada and I sent her. It was a wing clip and she ran it down but couldn't pick it up so she just drag it back to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Clayton Evans:
Yes my pups are ff before they start teething and they don't where a collar at that age. I cc after ff is almost complete so that I can reinforce the ff for it to be completed.
I don't in anyway suggest that you ff your pup at 4 months. Read the dog to see if it is ready before starting that early. Mine all were as they have a lot of bottom end. One I just finished ff and jump shot a Canada and I sent her. It was a wing clip and she ran it down but couldn't pick it up so she just drag it back to me.

What I ment on collar was did you do obediance with a pinch, choke, or buckle collar when they were really young?

I don't understand cc at 4 months. The e-collar
is to reinforce what the dog has already learned. 4 months old can't know much. I ran my young dog at 6 months in Derby and got two jams. Also, ran him in JH and got that. He was force fetched at I believe five months. But I was careful to remember he was a puppy and still is. I made allowances for puppy stuff and to let him have fun. I gradually increased pressure by reading his attitude. Just my thoughts. I'm still learning. Opinions welcomed. Oh yeah I do force fetch backwards. Glove hand in mouth and so on.

This is very interesting. I have never heard of a chessie four months old that was forced. I may be off base but seems almost impossible. I can almost imagine teaching a force hold. No I can't even imagine that. How do you correct a four month old pup with a collar, I can see some moron nicking her for peeing in her kennel, but collar conditioning I doubt it. Dogs that are forced properly are not affraid. They don't work because of fear. They work because they love it. They do it our way because we have trained, forced, used attrition, used rewards, and so on and so on. Have you ever seen a scared dog work. I have and it ain't pretty

quote:

Originally posted by Clayton Evans:

I don't in anyway suggest that you ff your pup at 4 months. Read the dog to see if it is ready before starting that early. Mine all were as they have a lot of bottom end.

How do you tell that a 4 month old puppy has bottom?

Norene

Now it's late and I am confussed.
CBRkaie, who's program are you using
Clayton, who's program are you using

Tim

Thanks for the reference, I have a collection of books similar in content but not that particular one. I will see if I can't find it give it a read. My wife is a Practice Manager for a Veterinarian who is really into dog Psychology and has passed on several of her books to me.

It is starting to heat up this morning so I need to get to the field, a client is running late and I just took a moment to check on this thread before he arrives.

Clayton, is not the first person I have heard of FF and collar conditioning a 4 month old. I would be willing to hazard a guess that his "Program" is his own.

One thing if you really tinik about folks in this game have become Program oriented and not Dog behavior oriented. Plenty of information out there but it is not carved in stone and by all means should not be, Tim has been successful with our breed in Trials and I would hazard to guess his "Program" is not cut and dried or off of the latest CD. Thinking and reading your dog is the key to success and is why and how folks that are successful at Trials continually have it and just not with the same animal.

Looking for a better way to start a pup than I have in the past, to make it easier to create a learning environment at a young age that will carry over to the next stage in development.

Client is here and I have to go, please continue the post and don't let it get into a argument stage over someone's methods. They may not be yours but the information may be useful to you or someone else, "Success Breed Acceptance" if you doubt it look at the current collar programs.

Marty

Marty, I have enjoyed and thought about your topic. I realize a pups mind is like a sponge and absorbs alot of info, My question. What can you really teach a 8 week old pup. Other than introducing them to new activities, guns, birds, other dogs, water etc. I've got a three month old at the house now. In my opinion their attention spand is too short. About programs. I would not build a house without a set of plans and wouldn't train a dog without a proven program. Not to say it's set in stone just a foundation. I meant no sarcasm about asking what program the other guys were using. I had just never heard of one using force at that age. As you know. but others may not FF is a process that teaches a dog alot more than to hold a bumper in his mouth

quote:

Originally posted by Greg E:
What can you really teach a 8 week old pup.

Sit, here, heel.

As Tim Guessed My program is my own accumulated over the last 13 years reading several authors books gun dog articles Butch Goodwins articles etc. I just use the info that I like to be successful.

Interesting discussion. Reward training is how most obedience competition dogs are trained now. I believe Ann Bowen tried this method to train her CBRS for field work in the late 80's.

The only thing I would say is that a CBR has a stronger tendency to think on their own than a Lab. Sometimes that thinking will require a physical correction as no matter how much a reward is offered, it may not be enough.

A good trainer is an innovative trainer who tailors his/her training to the dog. Lottie Shetzler made two field champions and had three other *** dogs with a training mind set of figuring out her dogs and what they needed.
Reward training as a start which is then turned into the bird as a reward should work.

Dyane

Jtowne I agree with you. Clayton shoulds like your program is an accumulation of alot of good ones and works for you. When our pups are young our emphasis is on socialization. I feed my pup in the dog trailer every morning(alot of books and pros don't like this) It works for us. Gets them used to the trailer which they spend alot of time in during hunting season. Birds, creeks, guns, etc. We make a tremendous effort to expose the pup to as many things as we can.
As far as basic obedience we just don't start that young. Like everyone else we teach sit, kennel, etc but most if it is done with treats and not force

quote:

One thing if you really tinik about folks in this game have become Program oriented and not Dog behavior oriented. Plenty of information out there but it is not carved in stone and by all means should not be, Tim has been successful with our breed in Trials and I would hazard to guess his "Program" is not cut and dried or off of the latest CD. Thinking and reading your dog is the key to success and is why and how folks that are successful at Trials continually have it and just not with the same animal.

Looking for a better way to start a pup than I have in the past, to make it easier to create a learning environment at a young age that will carry over to the next stage in development.

Client is here and I have to go, please continue the post and don't let it get into a argument stage over someone's methods. They may not be yours but the information may be useful to you or someone else, "Success Breed Acceptance" if you doubt it look at the current collar programs.

Marty has made some excellent points above as has Dyane Baldwin. Though I've not trained field dogs to the degree of many people on this board, I've had chessies for many years, titled many chessies including 2 Champion/Utility dogs with JH's and pride myself on having some very well mannered and well trained dogs at whatever level they get to.

I read a lot and try to absorb what I read. I have learned to think in the mind of a dog in order to better understand why they do what they do. I try to go forward positively with all my pups and start them with basic obedience and retrieving at 8 weeks of age. With the retrieving, I try to work them in such a manner that they learn from the beginning to come right back to me always with the object of their retrieve. I talk to them in an upbeat tone of voice the entire time I'm working them which not only continues to encourage them to want to work for me, but also teaches them to become very focused on me and on what I am asking them to do. Once I know they understand what I'm asking them to do, I'm also not adverse to using corrections. In the beginning I will also use food treats to keep them focused and motivated, but I will alternate that with voice praise as well and toy rewards as too many dogs get too focused on food at the hands of amateur trainers.

I think that a trainer who tries to focus on someone's specific method of training is going to have problems with their dog at some point because not everyone's method works for everyone's dog. The key is to absorb as much training information and methodology as you can, then apply the needed knowledge to the dog you are working at the time.

Just my two cents worth.

Kathy Miller
Sandy Oak Chesapeakes

quote:

Originally posted by Norene S.:

quote:

Originally posted by Clayton Evans:

I don't in anyway suggest that you ff your pup at 4 months. Read the dog to see if it is ready before starting that early. Mine all were as they have a lot of bottom end.

How do you tell that a 4 month old puppy has bottom?

Norene

Clayton,
Maybe you missed my first question.....As a matter of interest I would like to know how one evaluates bottom on a 4 month old puppy.

Thanks,
Norene

Noreen I agree I always hear some people tell me their dog has a lot of bottom. Well for all these chessies that have all this bottom we only have a few FC/AFC's and when I see a hunt test your lucky to see two chessies.

Now on to reading your dog. That is the key. And most people including myself cannot really read their dog. I have only seen a handful of people who can read dogs. Those people know when to make the correction and what and why the dog did something.Most of us quess and hope we make the correction at the right time so the dog can learn. Because I believe not many people can truely read dogs I try to make my success rate higher and my failure rate is purposely prepared before I run the dog. In other words I set up the failure so that I can correct it. I control the timing. Keep in mind with all my B.S. I don't have an AF/AFC. Only in my dreams. Just my opinion.

We all begin training our dogs the minute that we get them. Not much happens in a puppy’s life that is not a learning experience good or bad.

For me there is a big difference between correction and pressure. Correction for young dogs is a necessity so they grow up to be well behaved and to understand their place in your life or family. Pressure is consistent negative reinforcement (of any kind, Amish, attrition, ecollar) to shape a behavior against the dog’s will. I avoid pressure for as long as possible.

So what would the benefits be of applying pressure to a young puppy? What would you be gaining? In my opinion you would be risking much more. Style and drive are the first two that come to mind.

No matter what training method you use it is the dog’s genetic desire that we shape and mold to produce the results we desire. That desire may be a love of retrieving, or a love of game, or a desire to please you, but whatever it is you can’t put it in there. All you can do is try to use it to your advantage.

I think recognizing a puppy’s natural strengths and desires and building on them is key. I am on my first retriever and I didn’t feel he was ready for FF until he was 8 months. I did do some OB with and without rewards when he was young. Retrieving makes him silly he is so crazy about it. It has been the only reward I have needed as he has gotten older. Unfortunately my limited retriever experience prevents me from thinking “outside of the box”. Most days I have trouble thinking inside of it to be quite honest. Interesting thread though.