I have been studying quite a few articles lately on this style of training pertaining to young dogs and starting them on the road to early learning development. The end goal will be for me will be an All Age competitor. I am trying to create a program to start a pup from 8/9 weeks of age enhance there natural learning ability to help them accept the rigors of advanced training.

I started with my first pup Bang (RudyxMeg) and saw an marked improvement in ability to learn new things and accept collar pressure while going through the Yard compared to 3 labs going through the same process without this style "Operant training" for another term.

I am curious if anyone else has tried this type of training on a young peake during the first 5/6 months of training before going into a collar program.

I have always done the "normal" work with pups taking to the field, short happy marks, socialize in the house and take them everywhere. Treats were always a part of the early obedience training so it in itself is nothing new.

Has anyone else worked with this style of training and what do you do.

Marty

quote:

Originally posted by Marty Newport: I am trying to create a program to start a pup from 8/9 weeks of age enhance there natural learning ability to help them accept the rigors of advanced training.

Has anyone else worked with this style of training and what do you do.

Marty

I always hope I'm "enhancing their natural learning ability" but I don't know the specifics of the style you are trying.

Can you give examples?

I strive from the beginning to: expose, establish expectations, maintain a high standard, and teach the correct way of performing so I don't have as many mistakes to correct. It's at least the plan!

Tim

Tim
We all try to do the things you mentioned. This type of training is a reward based training dealing with some studies done by folks a lot smarter and with more degrees than I will ever have.
I have sorted through several articles, web sites and conversations with folks that have a program based on reward and incorporating a clicker with great results with young dogs.

I used the normal pup training treats with sit, two sided healing, down, here etc. I took Bang farther along with treat training than the other Lab pup that I had here at the same time. Asking her to climb, jump, crawl into areas that I have never done with a pup before each and every time with introduction of a reward she would go into a space, room, ditch, log, etc boldly and with almost reckless abandon.
I had spent some time in the past year or so with a Bomb dog trainer and watched him take 10/12 week old pups and using treats teach them to move through tunnels, climb on rubble piles go into tight places and lay a foundation to teach dogs to go into places that they don't want to go in a positive manner.

After all if you look at the Field Trial game as putting "Birds where Dogs don't want to go" isn't all of our advanced training based on teaching them with, repetition,indirect pressure, direct pressure to finally get the bird/reward.

Just trying to think outside the box a little and was looking for some ideas that other folks have used to help their pups.

The success Bill Hillman and others have had with young dogs has gotten me thinking about changing the way my pups are started. Being competitive early and staying competitive through out there life is what we are all looking for.

Marty

Marty,
From what you describe with the bomb dog trainer I would place in my "expose" category.
This I do start upon pups arrival (8-10 wks) with our daily walks that involve going thru cover, climbing up and down the sides of ditches, wading thru steams, walking across cornfields not down the rows, etc. There are no collars or leads just the desire of the pup to not be alone.
The reward for completing these task may need to vary for the pro vs the owner trainer. Treats may be more effect for the pro, as later performance will be under the direction of someone else, where as the owner/long term handler may get the same result when the reward is direct physical and verbal praise especially of a CBR puppy.
JMHO

Tim

I don't know a lot of field trial trainers although, the two that I associate with and two hunt test trainers I know do not use food rewards.

I don't quite understand the associational transition from food reward to field work. As little wee pups, I can see the fun rewards for here, stay etc but, I don't see food reward as helping develop a strong field competitor that an all age dog must become.

Unfortunately, the work required in field trial competition requires a lot of pressure. I think most people here will agree that pressure and MOST Chessies are two things that don't mix well.

I do feel, to make a strong competitor, pressure is a requirement and the application of pressure is a very fine line. Dog is taken down to the bottom and built back up again, to be taken down again and built back up.

Bomb sniffing and service work is a reward based business. Dog sniffs out the right stuff, a treat reward is given.

Field trial work is a force business. Force to go places dog doesn't want to go, force to go distance, etc. There isn't room for any refusal in a field trial. The old timers will tell you the dog must think it is going to die if, it stops, if it doesn't find the bird or if, it doesn't get the mark. All is fear based.

Kate
I disagree on Trial training being fear based, it is and would be impossible for a dog to do the work required to become a Field Champion/Master Hunter/Hunting Retriever Champion based on fear and utilizing fear for the basis of a training program. I have never titled a Field Champion but have put derby points and QAA on several dogs and have titled Master Hunters and HRCH's. None of these dogs responded from fear in doing the things required to achieve their titles.

A pressure program is used by nearly everyone in the Trial/Test world, I know of a few Hunt Test trainers that attempt the Master and Finished level without a pressure based system but with limited success. There is a big difference in using pressure to create a learned response and fear. A dog does not and will not do a long retired water mark in a "Fear Mode" He will do it in response to a learned behavior the resulting in understanding when and where to get in or out of the water. Case in point an over the point by a point long swim up and out type of mark. This type of behavior is taught not with fear but with a pressure system that utilizes trained responses that guide a dogs innate desire to retrieve and please his handler/owner thus resulting in a reward of the bird and an excited handler/owner.

What I am trying to do is start a foundation for my young dog to understand that compliance to a command results in a reward. Using treats early in training creates the mindset that "compliance" results in reward, now the reward is a treat as they get older "compliance" results in a duck or bumper as a reward. I used this system with Bang coupled with exposure to other situations/areas and reward when hesitant or reluctant to take the stress out of the situation. Creating a stressful situation in a pup can be as simple as asking them to cross a ditch or a log that in "Their Mind" is to big for them. Getting them to cross and or jump a small log for a reward at this early age starts the process.

I saw a marked improvement with Bang when I started FF compared to the other three labs started at the same time. One of which I raised with Bang in the house and she had the same level of socialization as Bang with out the treat training that Bang received. Throughout FF, Force to Pile, Water Force, Single T and now Water T she has been constantly ahead of the Labs even though she is 3 to 4 months younger than her kennel mates.

I started this thread to see if anyone else has tried thinking outside the "current box' in regards to training and teaching dogs how to process information with the goal of making the transition easier for the young dogs when they go into the yard.

Marty

quote:

Originally posted by CBRKAIE:
I do feel, to make a strong competitor, pressure is a requirement and the application of pressure is a very fine line. Dog is taken down to the bottom and built back up again, to be taken down again and built back up.

Field trial work is a force business. Force to go places dog doesn't want to go, force to go distance, etc. There isn't room for any refusal in a field trial. The old timers will tell you the dog must think it is going to die if, it stops, if it doesn't find the bird or if, it doesn't get the mark. All is fear based.

Paul,
I absolutely disagree with this part of your post. A good trainer knows that force has it place. A dog that requires forcing as you describe above would certainly not be the type of dog that Dom and I would want to breed and/or compete with.

If training for or running field competition is not fun for the dog and trainer then why even doing it? I can only speak for myself(and Dom), but if I had to continuly take a dog down to the bottom to build him up again, I would find another venue to do with my dogs.

Successful trainers (FT/HT) grow with the times.....and the syle & quality of work today that can be seen at these events proves that is the case........Just my two cents.

Norene & Dom S.
Nordom Chesapeakes

Marty I agree with you and Tim. CBRKAIE is not in the ball park. Don't know what he/she is talking about - "fear" the bird is the reward.
Pressure and fear are not the same thing.

Oh yeah great thread you started - very interesting and thanks Tim for your import. I'm learning from both your posts.

Very intresting topic, I'm always intrested in new training methods. I have always used the Jackie Mertins Sound Beginings method to start pups which is what I think alot of people are using. She uses treats a little but not near the extent that you are talking about. I do know pups think with there stomach, so using food as a tool should have great potential in my opinion.
Marty your a pro, I think you should have an on going experiment and start 5-10 dogs each way and see how it goes, then tell us all your secrets . All kidding aside I'd be very intrested in hearing how the next pups do using the new method and how they advance into transition work. I work for a pro on weekends and he uses some methods that are far from conventional, and they work very well. So its always cool to learn something new.

Marty, you wrote:
I started this thread to see if anyone else has tried thinking outside the "current box' in regards to training and teaching dogs how to process information with the goal of making the transition easier for the young dogs when they go into the yard.
My experience is slightly different, but applicable to yours. First of all, I'm not versed on what is expected with Field Trials and such so I cannot comment here but you seem to have a "handle" on everything you're doing.
My expertise is behaviorism and training Service
Dogs (handicapped, assistance, & seeing eye). I
also employ methods "outside the box'. For example, most service dogs or seeing eye dogs "in training" are usually placed in a foster home for 12-14 months, then enrolled in a intensive training course for their speciality
I prefer to start a potential canidate for work
at 12 weeks with actual wheelchair or leading work. This method prevents "bad habits" from blocking needed training they usually have by starting training later on. Also, The transition
to the work expected of them is smoother since they learn early on. You have the right idea to
give early intervention for training. I can offer this since I do know finding & retreiving
is part of field work: You mentioned giving treats for accomplishment of small goals. This is fine, esp with young pups. Advice, instead of handing a treat for performance (whatever it is,eg climbing a rut, going through underbrush)
try to make the treat a part of training or what is expected. For example, place the treat at the end of the goal, after the rut, otherside of underbrush, etc. Also try throwing a treat in tall grass, brush, in water, etc after they accomplish what you want. This is important for several reasons. Esp for a dog expected to retreive fowl. First of all, the dog
by having to hunt for the treat will develop skills needed later on (using sight & smell) plus the early experience of "finding". Also by using this method, you can negate the negative effects of treat training - sometimes a dog won't perform if they know no treat or reward. By having to hunt for the treat after they had to accomplich something, the association with the treatshifts from reward for doing something to reward for finding the treat. Also mix up the reward so the dog never knows what he or she will get, eg biscuit, pat on head/back, etc

Marty,
I completly agree with your concept that "compliance to command results in reward".That reward may vary from time to time, from dog to dog and from trainer to trainer. But,there has to be something in it for the dog. This is where the amateur may have an advantage over the pro trainer. Having established a command-response-reward system in very simple tasks the transition to more demanding tasks is easier. For example, it is much easier to introduce FTP to a dog that already loves to run to that pile.
This is the foundation of retriever training, getting the dog to do what it loves your way. Most any dog can be trained to be obedient but it very depressing to watch a dog retrieve out of obligation.

Tim

Maybe a bit of misunderstanding on my post. The original post was stating they wanted to make an "all age competitor"

I surprised by the amount of responses disagreeing that pressure and fear is used to make field trial champions. I would like to know for those disagreeing with me, exactly how many AFC/FC's have you personally trained from start to finish. I have trained none, for your reference.

Make no mistake, I am not condoning the style of training used to make field trial champions nor, do I have a dog which would take the training and pressure required to become a FC/AFC. I have been witness to high levels of pressure and dogs which respond well to these levels of pressure. About 5 of these dogs will be running qualifying stakes in field trials next season. One is just hitting a year old and has 5 JAM's consecutively. These are dogs are part of my regular training group. Have no doubt, this is a group of dogs which have deep field trial breedings and are very happy, sylish working dogs.

Norene, I agree with you when you say that if, field trials are not fun for the dog or trainer, don't field trial. I don't field trial and don't anticipate my dog being capable of ever running in a field trial. I have no doubt she will make a MH next year but, she certainly will never score points in an open. I just don't quite understand why you disagree field trial has more force and pressure required TO BE COMPETITIVE in other events such as hunt tests or UKC, obediencee, etc.

I think a lot of people stay out of the field trial game because it is not a fun friendly place. HT and similar venues are laid back, supportive and non-competitive. Field trials are the opposite. People invest insane amounts of money into breedings and training and expect performance. Not saying it is the way to go, just a little honesty about the FT game.

just my feelings on field trials---Paul G

perseverance and attrition works everytime

quote:

Originally posted by CBRKAIE:

I think a lot of people stay out of the field trial game because it is not a fun friendly place. HT and similar venues are laid back, supportive and non-competitive. Field trials are the opposite. Paul G

Paul,
I have played both and have observed something very different. There are more people that complain about not going home with HT ribbon then a FT ribbon. Many go to HTs expecting a ribbon. In FTs you are praying for one.
As far as being supportive: in HT you fail in FT you were just not good enough.
Both venues are competitive: HT are you vs the judge's view of the standard, in FTs it is you vs other dogs.

Tim

CBRKAIE- YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. START READING AND LEARNING. A YEAR OLD DOG GETTING JAM'S IN THE QUAL - I DOUBT IT. DO YOU MEAN DERBY? YOU SEEM COMPLETELY IGNORANT OF TRAINING A DOG AND I FOR ONE AM GETTING TIRED OF YOUR POSTS. YES I HAVE AN ALL AGE QUALIFIED DOG. I HAVE A YOUNG DOG THAT HAS EARNED JAMS IN THE DERBY. I HAVE A MASTER HUNTER AND A SENIOR HUNTER. I RUN QUAL WITH MY YOUNG DOG AND AMAT WITH MY OLDER DOG. MY QUESTION- DO YOU OWN A CHESSIE?

Marty,

Sorry this went off topic. Hope you can salvage something from the appropriate responses to your post. I feel the best reward when playing with pups in the field is bird reward if, you can alway manage to keep a smaller live pigeon in your pocket. I will commonly go on a walk, hide, call alll the pups back to me and surprise the pack with a shackled, floping bird in the middle of the trail. The last two litters I have helped my trainer start were yellow's dogs.

Moscowitz, Please re-read my post. The group I train with will be running Qual's NEXT YEAR in addition to MH. Peter's Golden has 5 consecutive DERBY jams this season and a number of senior passes. Others in the group with barely 1 year old dogs also have a few JAMs. Sorry you are tired of my posts. I can't help it if, you disagree making a NFC requires a level of fear and a lot of pressure to get there. I really disagree with you that my opinion on that topic makes me ignorant. I hope your message just came across wrong in written word. I didn't say it was my way of training or the way I train my Chessie. I certainly don't think it is a way to train any Chessie.

Especially the personality I was working with, extremely soft and sensitive to any pressure. The Pro I train with said in his 60 years of experience as a pro, he has never seen a Chessie start as poorly as mine and lack so much natural ability. When I started training her, everything was failure. I stuck with my goal, stuck to my program and trained diligently every day and every weekend to get through SH this season. She'll be ready for MH next year. I may run one or two late this season to see how she performs.

Breakwater Salutes USS Maddox 10-26-2006.

Regards, Paul

In 2004 I was in Ireland running some international Trials US against Ireland, Wales, England etc. I spent quite a bit of time with a trainer from Ireland named Nigel Carvell talking about puppy development and exchanging views on our different style of training. Mine of course all collar his what we would call Amish. They start there pups out much earlier with obedience than we do (there game demands a more obedient style of work) but one thing that they do with pups as young as 14 to 16 weeks of age is a drill called a "Trailing Memory Drill". It is semilar to "Back Trailing" with a more advanced dog to teach a technical blind. I was fortunate enough to see 4 different pups started on this drill and watch them progress for the next two weeks. It was really remarkable to see this young dogs stretch out so quickly for only a matter of a 5 feet to distances of 50+ yards and progressing to doing this to a "Double Trailing Memory".

I will describe it as best I can. Pup is on a leash, no cover at all a well mown flat area is used. Walk with pup about 10 feet or so and drop bumper, turn and walk about 5 feet have pup sit and then send on "Back" or pups name your choice. When pup retrieves bumper you praise as you would expect pick up lead and walk to a new spot, repeat until you see pup might be losing interest, always stop before enthusiasm wains. In the space of two weeks 4 different pups were stretched out to at least 50 yards or more. The pups did no more than 3 or 4 retrieves during a session and the bumper was never placed in the same place, pup was always sent to a new spot for each additional retrieve.

They really stress puppy work and doing more lining at early age than marks, primarily the difference in the game.
I mention this in conjunction with this thread because it is something that might be of use to us and hopefully to stimulate more discussion about young dog work and what we can do to enhance our pups abilities earlier. If we have a draw back in our breed it is in my opinion our dogs are slow to mature mentally and we have to wait for there minds to catch up to there bodies. Very few of our dogs excel early some never reach there full potential due to todays training programs. I know our dogs are not for everyone, I don't want them to be. I do however want to see them exhibit the traits that they are bred for. They mark better and memory is to die for, in our breed water is seldom an issue, what we have to do is work for a better way to bring out there abilities earlier.

Marty

Marty question - Do our chessies really mature later or are we just not training them properly for their breeding. I am convinced that labs are bred for the type of training that is required. Labs seem to take pressure differently then our chessies. I don't think chessies can't take pressure. I think they can. But it is how we present the pressure that makes the difference. This is just my opinion and I don't have nearly the experience that you and Tim have.

Marty,

your posting on starting young pups is very familiar. The old man I work with has been very well known for starting pups and in younger years finishing them.

With that being said, He has spoken about a trainer who came to his brothers' pointing dog kennel from England to assist training a "English" trial lab in the 1950's when they first accepted a retriever. His account of the training style coincides with the practice of starting dogs early. It was his practice to start pups from day one working progressively towards the end goal and his training techniques reflect that position to this day. He likes starting pups early with short sessions and positive experiences.

All pups have been started with sight blinds from the time we are teaching them to heal and using a healing stick and lead. Sight blinds are promoted with visible road cones so, there is no confusion. As pup matures, gains confidence, cones are replaced with standard flags.

When new and difficult concepts incorporating marks and variables are introduced, the cones are pulled back out until the test can be reapeated successfully in a different location.

He is a firm believer you never repeat a blind or a mark in the same location unless, you did not complete it properly and are explaining the set up to the dog.