I posted this on Chessie Unlimited. Lets see what you guys think.

Just got "Retriever On Line" and really enjoyed the article "Evaluating Blinds". But a question came into my mind on double tapping - blowing a sit whistle and when dog is sitting blowing another sit whistle.

Question- How would you judge this -

Toot dog stops turns but is not sitting toot he puts his ass down?

Reaching end of blind momentum high toot then another toot he sits?

Acceptable, minor deduction or your not called back?

From a hunt test stand point I would mark them down a little in trainability if they blew two whistles. But if they only blew one whistle and dog stays standing but still takes the right cast, in that situation I wouldn't mark them down. That dog is running loose and would most likey eliminate himself soon enough.

The double whistle has very little to do with getting the dogs butt on the ground in most cases. It is a correction whistle. It is replicating training in which a hard whistle is followed by a burn followed by a second whistle. Dog refuses a cast you give the double whistle whith the pause in between as a "now you listen to me". I see no reason to ding for it. Just good handlers doing what good handlers do, controlling their dog. If you use this pattern consistently in training you can give the doulble without any pressure and will see the dog react as if it has been and most cases will now be under better control.

Thats why I would mark them down in trainability, shouldn't be training at a test or trial. There may come a time were it might be worth it to gain control even if you get dinged.

If the dog stands and takes the cast fine with me, I don't think there is anything in the rules stating a dog has to sit when taking a cast. I don't want my dogs doing it though.

Usually as I said in the other post when a dog turns and still stands your about to have some problems in the rest of your blind. Next comes refusals.

quote:

Originally posted by Craig Klein:
Thats why I would mark them down in trainability, shouldn't be training at a test or trial.

How is this training at a trial? A dog sits on a whistle because it is trained to. A dog responds to a double whistle for the same reason. Hell in my opinion a dog that realize "ok boss I stepped out of line now your running the ship" has be better trained than one that refuse cast after cast and hacks their way to the pin. Just for what it is worthst my opinion

Jim I think I might agree with Craig. But better to get the second whistle in then the dog going wild and getting dropped or no call back. I think. Did you get rid of your dog that you think sucks now that you got a real chessie

A well trained dog will sit straight and pay attention on ONE whistle. To me its not much different then the guy who comes to line saying heel every step to keep his dog under control. Or saying sit multiple times to get his dog seated at the line.
Not saying my dogs don't ever need that second whistle, but it is a flaw in my book, not a reason for a drop or failer but proble should be marked down.

The way I read AKC HT rules/faults it is a fault if the dog doesn't stop. The rules use the word stop not sit when defining a whistle refusal.

There is no requirement to sit on a whistle,

The use of the 2nd sit whistle is a handling technique, "You handle a fast dog slow and a slow dog fast".

Tim

I think you may be missing what I am using the second whistle for. Rereading what has been written we are talking about two different things. Yes a dog that does not sit on the whistle and needs a second is not under control. Still not too big a ding if the blind is good. I use the second whistle even when the dog has already sat as a correction whistle. i.e. dog fades with the wind in a cross wind blind on two subsequent casts, third stop is a hard whislte a pause and a second short whistle just like what would be done in training with a correction between the two whistles. A well trained dog will often realize that they are being corrected and will take a better line on the next cast. Just an other tool in the tool box.

As a judge I have no business guessing what a handler intends (or a dog for that matter), and when judging I make no attempt to do so. This business of a second toot is irrelevant to evaluating a blind, and I ignore it completely. If it really is an indication that the dog is nearly out of control that will show up subsequently. Anyway, there is no requirement a dog sit during a blind--or that a dog must go over on an extended arm cast even if the word "over" is used. We can always find nit-picky things to ding a dog for, but what we SHOULD be trying to determine is quite simple: can they mark? and will they handle? Set up good tests and you'll get answers to those questions without worrying about how many feet were on the mat and similar nonsense.

Boy Tom that how many feet on a mat is nonsense. Malcolm Haith a long time ago did not get a call back for not having feet on mat. Even though his dog did a great job in getting the birds. Some judges???

Another spin on this topic, how would you judge some one who blows a come in whistle to staighten out a sit?
There are a few Master judges around here that will drop you intantly if you blow a come in whistle durning a blind. They always say at the meeting "Your dog better have a bird in his mouth if you blow a come in whistle". I don't agree with this.

Tom I agree I think we all get to nit-picky about petty stuff.

The purpose of a blind is to judge control. Double whistles,double cast(1st silent 2nd verbal) come in whistles,mats....are all secondary.
When judges have set a good blind they can judge the dog. The good dogs will surface and the ones that need various "tricks" to stay under control will fall by the way side. It 's that easy.

JMO

Tim

quote:

Originally posted by Craig Klein:
Another spin on this topic, how would you judge some one who blows a come in whistle to staighten out a sit?
There are a few Master judges around here that will drop you intantly if you blow a come in whistle durning a blind. They always say at the meeting "Your dog better have a bird in his mouth if you blow a come in whistle". I don't agree with this.

Tom I agree I think we all get to nit-picky about petty stuff.

I believe the wording at least for field trials (not sure about hunt tests) is that all casts must make progress towards the blind. A come in whistle is a cast. Therefore the only time it is acceptable is if the dog has passed the pin. A come in to straighten a sit or to get better position to complete the blind is a drop in my book. But the mind set of you better have the bird beofre you blow the come in makes no sense.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim McGinley:

quote:

Originally posted by Craig Klein:
Another spin on this topic, how would you judge some one who blows a come in whistle to staighten out a sit?
There are a few Master judges around here that will drop you intantly if you blow a come in whistle durning a blind. They always say at the meeting "Your dog better have a bird in his mouth if you blow a come in whistle". I don't agree with this.

Tom I agree I think we all get to nit-picky about petty stuff.

I believe the wording at least for field trials (not sure about hunt tests) is that all casts must make progress towards the blind. A come in whistle is a cast. Therefore the only time it is acceptable is if the dog has passed the pin. A come in to straighten a sit or to get better position to complete the blind is a drop in my book. But the mind set of you better have the bird beofre you blow the come in makes no sense.

sooo, if the dog is facing 45 degrees and you 'toot toot' softly and the dog straightens up but does not make forward progress, you would drop that dog?

WHat if you used a different command?...I saw a guy tell his dog to 'sit right!' after every whistle sit, and the dog did...LOL (It was actually pretty comical)

Juli

quote:

A come in whistle is a cast. Therefore the only time it is acceptable is if the dog has passed the pin.

Absolutely true. But a second toot to get the dog to sit (or for some similar purpose) is NOT a come-in whistle, almost universally that is a series of several quick toots.
Since the requirement is that the dog make progress toward the blind, the particular cast given to achieve that end is as irrelevant as the number of feet on the mat. The diagrams I draw in my judge's book show each time a whistle is blown (a solid dot means the dog stopped, a circle not filled in means the dog ignored the whistle) and the line the dog took after the whistle. I don't even bother to look to see what cast is given; the handler can stand on his head as far as I am concerned--and he will get my approval if that improves the dog's line to the blind.
My attitude on all this was influenced by experience training with Gene Austin several years ago. I stopped Topper and gave him an "over". He went straight back to the bird. Gene said that was a cast refusal, but I pointed out that in view of the lay of the land Topper would have thought a straight up back meant to go straight up the hill, which was actually at an angle 45 degrees left. I realized that things looked different from the dog's vantage point than ours and gave him a cast accordingly. Topper thought he was obeying my command and, I argued, should not be penalized for that. In the end my friend agreed.

The dog should judged by the line he takes to the blind. If you set up a good blind 99% of the field will have to handle there dog to touch the factors present.

The dogs she be judged on how well they are handled through these factors, not by how many whistles are used.

If and only if, the number of whistles corelate to cast refusals do you eliminate the dog.

Other wise how can you eliminate a dog who is on line and taking every cast? If he's ping ponging back and forth he's not taking your casts!

If he's off line to the point where you need a come in whistle, most likely a cast refusal put you there. Or you decided to run a different blind than the one the judges set up!
(Thats when you hear "my dog got there in 4 whistles, why were we dropped")

At least, thats how i see it!

The only other question will be momentum.

With all of this to consider, marking still should take precedence!

Good topic!!!

I was dropped after not sending my dog from the mat on the second bird of a triple.

my understanding before this incident was that the dog had to be on the mat before being released. He was! After that the test is mine and I can pick them up any way I want!

Scott Martin calmed me down and explained.
When you see a note in the holding blind stating the dog must be sent from the mat
It means for all birds!!!

So make sure to read those notes and get clarification! )))))))

It's a minor fault and should not have happened!!

I wasn't the only one that day! Everyone else had to play by those same rules.

quote:

The dogs she be judged on how well they are handled through these factors, not by how many whistles are used.

If and only if, the number of whistles corelate to cast refusals do you eliminate the dog.

I agree, Malcolm, but the rule book says clearly that dogs should carry casts a considerable distance. If they start in the correct direction, but quickly scallop back toward their former line, the handler is going to have to handle repeatedly and the number of whistles will add up. Still, the best way to judge this is not by counting whistles, but by looking at the line the dog took--the scallops will show up clearly in the judge's book. Another thing the book says: "initial line is very important." A dog that takes a bad initial line should be scored down regardless of how many subsequent whistles are used or what line is taken.

good interesting thread. Thank you.