That is the real question. And sincere, so I do want answers from people, because we are getting to year's end, entering grant cycles, and the ACC Health Committee is going to have to make recommendations to the ACC Charitable Trust for health research projects to fund.

Do we really want/need more gene-based tests? What do we do with all this information? Bearing in mind that this DM test only touches on one gene of perhaps several that collectively add up to disease. A polygenic trait that, regardless of how a dog test out, we are still in a gray area regarding how to proceed. Things are not ever clear when dealing with polygenic traits. And unfortunately, most of the serious ills facing this breed are polygenic in nature. Further genetic tests won't necessarily guide us out of the fog.

Or would time & money be better spent looking for ways/therapies to reduce the severity of the few serious diseases that this breed does get? One that springs to mind is autoimmune: there is no such thing as an "autoimmune gene", yet there are some autoimmune diseases that do have a genetic component. Hashimoto's-like thyroiditis is one (MSU numbers have us at a rate of 20% at the moment. That is a HUGE nmber), and of course, this latest headline-grabber, DM, which is also an autoimmune disease. So do we spend time & money looking for any of perhaps dozens of genes that, collectively, contribute to one or more autoimmune conditions? Or do we look for perhaps, other, non-DNA-based index tests that can be used to evaluate a dog's susceptibility toward these problems? What is "normal" for one breed may not be "normal" for ours. We don't know; we have never studied this!

And what about hip dysplasia? Still the #1 genetic ill of our breed, yet on a case-by-case basis, does it really cause crippling disease in our breed? We don't know, because we have never studied this in depth, never looked outside the box for things that would be specific to OUR breed.

So, do we continue to spend Trust funds on more and more DNA tests? Or do we look for, or perhaps create from the ground up, our own studies that will examine the issues specific to this breed and how we can best deal with these?

Lisa

Quote: "So, do we continue to spend Trust funds on more and more DNA tests? Or do we look for, or perhaps create from the ground up, our own studies that will examine the issues specific to this breed and how we can best deal with these?"

Lisa, Profound Point!! In light of the fact that DNA tests are only "tools", that they can only provide a potential risk assessment of a dog towards a specific disease/ailment (not a guarantee- just because a dog is deemed 'affected' does not necessarily mean the dog will actually get the disease. Too many variables in place), the logical conclusion would be to
seek answers to these diseases/ailments elsewhere. This would include looking for solutions to impede or stop a diseases progression, lessen the severity of its' impact, or finding ways to confort afflicted dogs. DNA tests now available may provide a solution for trying to eradicate these diseases/ailments in the long term (by providing knowledge as to what dog can safely be bred to another - except being polygenic, there are no guarantees) but DNA testing is not a cure!! To really help and assist our CBR population, we MUST seek answers to all avenues of these diseases/ailments & their related impact.

Evaluation of a dog's susceptibility or inclination towards a specific disease/ailment, therapy to reduce its impact, and
gaining an understanding towards mitigating factors involved, environmental, physicological, etc., should be considered
foremost with great urgency. Charlie

Lisa,
Excellent question!!
We have some laboratory data but really do not know what it means.
EIC the most common of the newly discovered genes among retrievers IMHO is where to put our research money.
The total number of retrievers(labs +CBR) affected will help in finding a method of "management" of the disease. There have been reports of affected dogs being helped by diet supplements, phenobarbital,etc but currently there is no consensus. In addition dogs with EIC recover as opposed to the other diseases being a more debilitating long term and not usually manifesting themselves until later in the dog's life.

JMO

Tim

Lisa, Forgot to add this point:
Everyone so far is asking "why does this dog get this disease (whatever it is)?"
Nobody asks "why doesn't this dog get this disease?"

Perspective that may lead to containment/eradation/cure of xyz disease/ailment. DNA testing will pinpoint IF a dog is either 'normal', 'carrier', or 'clear' for a particular gene/allelle. DNA testing cannot pinpoint genes/allelle that are unknown that cancel or negate diseases/ailments without knowing what they are; like 'looking for a needle in a hay stack'.
Especially with polygenic, it gets even more complicated!
However, there is the potential that the limiting factor if a dog gets xyz disease/ailment may lie elsewhere; If may be food, environmental, physiologic (a 'healthy' dog may have an elevated/lower enzyme, hormone, etc that keep in 'check' a specific disease). DNA testing cannot provide this type of answer but other avenues of research can.

Hi Charles,
The request for samples from unaffected elderly dogs is crucial to figuring out why some A/A individuals never develop DM, but the question generalizes to all diseases. Without these data, we would have to wait for current A/A dogs to become so old that they aren't likely to develop DM.

I would like to see additional progress on elucidating the DM story. As much as I love genetic research, I suspect that the community has about as much as it can handle with this and the cataract study ongoing.

I've been in Peakes for only 14 years, but I've known a fair number of dogs that were either euthenized or sent into enforced early retirement because of moderate to severe hip dysplasia. Treatment options? Environmental correlates of either good or poor ageing in dysplastic dogs (beyond keeping them lean and somewhat active)? Or maybe a similar non-genetic approach to skin/coat issues? They are mighty common and disruptive for every type of home.

My current candidate for the next generation of genetic studies (once DM and cataracts are more or less understood) would be something on fearfulness/aggression. It's dismaying that unrelated litters so often include at least one bitch puppy that's a genetic spook from parents that are stable. The aggression issues are real but life experiences are much harder to model and often aggression doesn't manifest itself until later. So I'd go after the spookiness first because it may be "cleaner".

Claire

quote:

I would like to see additional progress on elucidating the DM story. As much as I love genetic research, I suspect that the community has about as much as it can handle with this and the cataract study ongoing.

Claire wrote the above.

My question is where is this club/breed in the study ? I saw Dr. A two weeks ago. The ONLY breeds active in the research now for the TRIANGULAR cataracts are Goldens, Labs & Rotts.
In working on this type of cataract, he told me he has determined it is a recessive. He feels for these breeds he will have some results sooner than later. So I asked about other breeds. He said that any breed interezted should be getting people with dogs diagnosed with ANY type cataract to send blood, copy of the eye report (must be opthamologist) and pedigree to Optigen. Anna Marie Senita was asking about who is handling this for the ACC. She sent some blood samples and offered to work on this. But I cannot find any information from the ACC except the donation made to the research. Why can't there be someone for people to go to; information on this web site and the ACC & CBRS about how to participate. The benefit of having the blood samples there is that when the work is completed on these initial breeds, we are ready to go. AND, since we talked about keeping diversity and genes in the pool, right now many dogs with cataracts are removed from breeding. Who knows maybe they would have had normal genes for DM or whatever.


I am NOT criticizing you Lisa either so do not take offense by this post. You have your hands full answering questions. As I said, Anna Marie is willing to work on this.

Dyane

quote:

Originally posted by PondHollow:

quote:

I would like to see additional progress on elucidating the DM story. As much as I love genetic research, I suspect that the community has about as much as it can handle with this and the cataract study ongoing.

Claire wrote the above.

My question is where is this club/breed in the study ? I saw Dr. A two weeks ago. The ONLY breeds active in the research now for the TRIANGULAR cataracts are Goldens, Labs & Rotts.
In working on this type of cataract, he told me he has determined it is a recessive. He feels for these breeds he will have some results sooner than later. So I asked about other breeds. He said that any breed interezted should be getting people with dogs diagnosed with ANY type cataract to send blood, copy of the eye report (must be opthamologist) and pedigree to Optigen. Anna Marie Senita was asking about who is handling this for the ACC. She sent some blood samples and offered to work on this. But I cannot find any information from the ACC except the donation made to the research. Why can't there be someone for people to go to; information on this web site and the ACC & CBRS about how to participate. The benefit of having the blood samples there is that when the work is completed on these initial breeds, we are ready to go. AND, since we talked about keeping diversity and genes in the pool, right now many dogs with cataracts are removed from breeding. Who knows maybe they would have had normal genes for DM or whatever.


I am NOT criticizing you Lisa either so do not take offense by this post. You have your hands full answering questions. As I said, Anna Marie is willing to work on this.

Dyane

Or you could have contacted me privately to get answers to your questions, instead of posting it on the boards.

The ACC liaison for the cataract study is Lorrie Johnson. The last communication she had from Dr. A. was he was not yet ready to receive samples from Chessies.

So somewhere along the way, the change in status was not communicated back to the ACC HC. We can only know what we are told when we enquire, directly, of the person actually running the study. Things posted on internet boards always take the form of rumor in my mind, until they are confirmed. Any time you have substantial information to impart, it would be common courtesy to communicate it back to me. I don't have time to follow you around the internet.

Lisa

Fact: Rocky has triangular cataracts. This was confirmed at the Vet hospital of U of P. On a scale of 1 to 10 and 10 being worst Rocky is a one. I did not see Dr. A. and I saw another Dr. I did not know the ACC was helping Dr. A. do a study on cataracts. This is a perfect example of information not getting to the people who need this information. If I knew Dr. A. was doing a study in Peakes I would have him confirm the problem and he could have taken blood and Rocky would have been in the study at this time.

Here is the problem and only my opinion: Along with the National and the National Amateur Club the ACC web pages are outdated and tired. One gets more information from web pages like RTF, CBR4ME and Team Chesapeake. EIC in Labs is a big problem and a bunch of people are talking about the problem on RTF. Mario put the EIC problem in Peakes on Teamchesapeake. DM was made very public with Tiger’s Blog. George’s web page has a very lively chat page with a lot of this information. If the information doesn’t get out the problem will stay!

Changes to the Working Retriever Central web page are coming. Teamchesapeake’s web page can be absorbed by the ACC for free if the ACC keeps it a retriever web page. Folks it all about getting the information out in a timely manor.

Lisa and Diane you girls are the best!!

Lisa,

I made it clear this was NOT a criticism of you. Anna Marie told me in Ohio that she approached you about this project and got an answer that said basically blood was not needed now. Yet she told you that she was told by Dr. A to send blood/reports & info to Optigen. Nor have I seen anywhere easily found that Lorrie Johnson is handling this. Anna Marie's husband is a personal friend of Anna Marie's. With that type of an in, maybe she should be working on this too.

Billy is right-the ACC web site needs to be updated (and the Board is aware of that). I am getting tons of email asking for the address to download the DM test info. George is planning to put it on his web site. You know people-it has to jump out at them. So maybe it needs to be even more prominent on this site.

We all love the breed. Let's not make this a personal issue.

Dyane

quote:

Fact: Rocky has triangular cataracts. This was confirmed at the Vet hospital of U of P. On a scale of 1 to 10 and 10 being worst Rocky is a one. I did not see Dr. A. and I saw another Dr. I did not know the ACC was helping Dr. A. do a study on cataracts. This is a perfect example of information not getting to the people who need this information. If I knew Dr. A. was doing a study in Peakes I would have him confirm the problem and he could have taken blood and Rocky would have been in the study at this time.

Please re-read what I posted. Only the Goldens, Labs and Rotts are in the active study that Dr. A is doing. But, any breeds that are actively accumulating blood of dogs affected with cataracts along with pedigree & eye reports will the next breeds he will move to. Maybe this is what the HC & Lorrie got confused about.

Also from Dr. A-the first cataracts to be worked on will be the triangular ones. Then they will move to the other types BUT he wants blood from any type of cataract.

Bill, I have always said if those triangluar cataracts were the worst thing I could have, i would be grateful. Most people do not even know that in the beginning of CERF, they certfied dogs with this type cataract.

Dyane

Hey, I didn't mean to start a range war with my small mistake. No slights intended here.

Claire

quote:

Originally posted by PondHollow:

quote:

Fact: Rocky has triangular cataracts. This was confirmed at the Vet hospital of U of P. On a scale of 1 to 10 and 10 being worst Rocky is a one. I did not see Dr. A. and I saw another Dr. I did not know the ACC was helping Dr. A. do a study on cataracts. This is a perfect example of information not getting to the people who need this information. If I knew Dr. A. was doing a study in Peakes I would have him confirm the problem and he could have taken blood and Rocky would have been in the study at this time.

Please re-read what I posted. Only the Goldens, Labs and Rotts are in the active study that Dr. A is doing. But, any breeds that are actively accumulating blood of dogs affected with cataracts along with pedigree & eye reports will the next breeds he will move to. Maybe this is what the HC & Lorrie got confused about.

Also from Dr. A-the first cataracts to be worked on will be the triangular ones. Then they will move to the other types BUT he wants blood from any type of cataract.

Bill, I have always said if those triangluar cataracts were the worst thing I could have, i would be grateful. Most people do not even know that in the beginning of CERF, they certfied dogs with this type cataract.

Dyane

Dyane;

Thanks for the clarification. Your original post looks like a slam against the ACC HC.

As for the ACC website, I've given up. We can't even get the link to the DM survey posted up there. Can't get old documents pulled down, changes to the Health pages. The WD info was popsted up, but in a format that most people won't be able to access, if they can even find it. It may be time for the ACC to hire someone professionally to manage the website.

Lisa

Thanks for the clarification. Your original post looks like a slam against the ACC HC.

As for the ACC website, I've given up. We can't even get the link to the DM survey posted up there. Can't get old documents pulled down, changes to the Health pages. The WD info was popsted up, but in a format that most people won't be able to access, if they can even find it. It may be time for the ACC to hire someone professionally to manage the website.

Lisa[/QUOTE]

Not my intention Lisa at all. I get passionate about the breed and things relating to it.

Well, I agree with your idea about the ACC web site. We should run it like the Bulletin-someone else does the hard work of getting cleaned up and any major updating with a club member (Kathy Heintel currently) reviewing and getting the material to put on the website. I am with here.

Dyane

Obviously you haven't looked at the ACC budget. But a significant amount of money is put into their web page which I agree is a dead web page with very little information coming from it. An idea would be for the ACC to buy Team chessie and turn it into the ACC web page if Billy is in agreement.

quote:

Originally posted by Moscowitz:
Obviously you haven't looked at the ACC budget. But a significant amount of money is put into their web page which I agree is a dead web page with very little information coming from it. An idea would be for the ACC to buy Team chessie and turn it into the ACC web page if Billy is in agreement.

It's better if Billy maintains this site independently. That way, it is not subject to the whims of an ever-changing group of leaders. This ACC administration is pretty health-conscious. The next one may not be so, and could dismantle this community that Billy worked so hard to build up.

There should always be sites where alternative viewpoints can be voiced!

Lisa

Diane and Lisa I've known for many years. I admire them. They both do the best job looking out what is best for the breed. My hat is off to you girls!!

Evertime you girls post I'm glued to the screen. The ACC web page has to be updated!

Well, I don't pay the bill, Mr. Smith does. But I have to agree that the ACC should do its thing independant of Team Chesapeake. I think it brings a needed "check and balance" to the equation. JMO

That being said, the current ACC website is pathetic and outdated. Also, I doubt the ACC powers that be, present or future, would allow "The Flaming Orifice" which is a great feature of Team Chesapeake. With the number of strong personalities our breed seems to attract, any club sponsered board could be a nightmare. The ACC would then have to have neutral board moderators, etc. Again, just my opinion.


Damon Sweep (who appreciates this board and those that make it happen)

Damon, I agree 100%!!
New to the internet (been on only 3 months) and I originally found 'TeamChesapeake' by accident (fortunate for me). I have visited other boards and found they are not as informative & well-maintained as this one.
Independence from outside influences is needed to maintain the integrity we now have here. What is most appealing is the vast background and experiences of those who post here. Also, everyone who posts here works/lives solely for the good of Chessies; Offering advice, opinions, and assistance for whatever concern freely & openly. We may have occasional disagree-
ments, but even then they are dealt with a high standard that make this forum so great & unique, and these differences in opinions/beliefs are actually helpful and informative to increased learning (whatever the subject is). I consider everyone whom posts here "family" and am grateful to have this type of forum available. Also, I have learned more information that pertains to Chessies here than anywhere else (for example, Billy's link on DM and Tiger. I knew what DM was but did not know it affected CBRS. I have not seen posting anywhere else to the extent found here).
I personally want to thank Billy & Paul for all your time, efforts, and concerns to make this board what it is as well as everyone working 'behind the scenes' to make it the educational, informative, caring, and sometimes entertaining
outlet it is. Also, a big thanks to all that post here - this board would not be what it is without everyone's imput!!
Sorry for long post but I had to 'voice' my appreciation. AGAIN, THANKS TO ALL!! Charlie

quote:

Originally posted by Moscowitz:
Obviously you haven't looked at the ACC budget. But a significant amount of money is put into their web page which I agree is a dead web page with very little information coming from it. An idea would be for the ACC to buy Team chessie and turn it into the ACC web page if Billy is in agreement.

I think this web site should stay independent for all the arguments made for independence. I think cooperation on linking & sharing important informaton may be appropriate but due to human nature & the politics of national organizations of every type, an independent venue is needed.

Dyane

That being said, the current ACC website is pathetic and outdated. Also, I doubt the ACC powers that be, present or future, would allow "The Flaming Orifice" which is a great feature of Team Chesapeake. With the number of strong personalities our breed seems to attract, any club sponsered board could be a nightmare. The ACC would then have to have neutral board moderators, etc. Again, just my opinion. Damon Sweep (who appreciates this board and those that make it happen)[/QUOTE]

The ACC Board is well aware of the problems with the web site. I think the web site should be maintained by other than a club member. It should be handled like the Bulletin-with a CBR ACC member being a clearhousing for information but the actual updating being paid to someone outside the club. The problems with having members do this is they have busy lives. The maintenance is not their job and gets pushed back in their orders of priority. It is the reason I do not have my husband do updates on our web site. He looks at it as-football, beer & peanuts & a good meal first on his list <VBG>.

JMO too

Dyane